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Wayne Besen
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An article in today's The New York Times says that investigators appointed by the Vatican have been instructed to review each of the 229 Roman Catholic seminaries in the United States for "evidence of homosexuality" and for faculty members who dissent from church teaching, according to a document prepared to guide the process.
How do they plan to do this, by hanging around the seminary showers? I hope they are successful and root out every gay priest in America, leaving the remaining five straight priests to run every church in the nation.
What a sad, pathetic joke. I wish gay priests in seminary would have some self-respect and just walk out, instead of indulge the Vatican in this ridiculous charade.
40 Comments:
Wayne, let them go ahead and make our day, then maybe it will shut down altogether, sorely needed. Just when we thought McCarthyism was long gone. In any event, its going to further impact straight males from becoming seminarians, but even they will be under scrutiny for any interest in the opposite sex I would think. These sick bastards in the Vatican have done a real hatchet job on us. They've exacerbated homophobia even more, but in the end, they'll get theirs, the wheel goes around.
The New Yor Times also mentioned that, Seminarians will be able to "accuse" others if they fill that there are "Doubtfull friendships" or if anyone "suspects" about someone else's homosexuality.
This is particularly interesting, because they will base their "Gay hungting" in the asumptions of others, and even guys who have had sex with other guys, but now feel shame about it will be able to "expiate" themselves by becoming collaborators.
One thing that the Church is overlooking completelly is the fact that there sexual abuse inflicted on women and girls, that there are straight priest that are far from celibate.
They are also using the "theory" that sexual abuse of boys is inflicted by homosexual, which is not only illinformed, but stupid. How many boys have been molested by their own father? I have meet adults troughout the years that tell stories of been abused sexully by heterosexual family members or friends, for whom the power imbalance was the factor. Personally, I know that many, many guys who are openly gay are mostly attracted to masculine mature men, not boys.
Now, in a different note, and given my personal experience as a former seminarian, I think that they will do a favor to all these gay guys, so they can leave the seminaries some of them have joined out of confusion, and if they feel like continue devoting their lives to ministry in the organized religion, they can do it far from an institution that force themto be less human
D in a Blue State: I absolutely agree with you. I too know of heterosexual priests who've dallied with women, its not that uncommon either, even fathered children, it would be a lot more difficult to ferret these philanderers out for sure, but its just that up till now, nobody in the church hierarchy ever thought about it and if they did have knowledge of it, probably would look the other way, just as they're playing down the role of straight priests abusing women and girls because it is heterosexual-based and more palatable if you will, not that it is. Its time they went after them too, then maybe when they've finished, they'll find they've decimated the clergy beyond recognition that they'll have no choice but to close down all of the seminaries once and for all. That goes for every denomination too.
This witch-hunt comes, of course, from RATzinger himself. He was always the imputus behind John Paul II's homophobic escapades. Having been raised in the hitler youth, he finally gets to put some of his skills to real use. Maybe after all the gay clergy are gone, he'll force the homosexual laity to star wearing pink stars instead of the yellow ones that he undoubtedly embroidered in the service of the Reich. Gary (NJ)
posted by Anonymous, at
9/15/2005 4:45 PM
When I was in my 20s (in the 1970s) there was a local catholic church where, according to my friends back then, the entire priesthood was gay. They even had drag shows in the rectory!! hahahaha Can you imagine? They should have changed the name to Our Lady of the Fabulous Gowns.
posted by Anonymous, at
9/15/2005 4:54 PM
I have personally known gay priests that are into leather, others that love sex parties, go to bars, have Boyfrinds, and so on... I think that the issue is not their homosexiluality, but the fact that they are been acused falsely of child molestation and the RATsinger (I like that) people are finding a way to perpetuate de idea that homosexuality equals perversion.
For many years there have been movements in the Roman Catholic Church dedicated to promote anunderstanding of homosexuality, and sexuality in general. The real problem here is that while groups like Dignity try to build bridges of understanding, and offering places for people to exercise their right to be openly gay in the presence of their fellow human beings (since we are openly gay in the eyes of God, who created us this way and love us this way) the "administrative" Church is been hijacked by the conservative elite, that usually is the equivalent of a terminator.
I think that Gay and Lesbian Priest and nuns as well as openly gay and lesbian Roman Catholics should count on the support of the LGBT community at large, because -even when some may exercise their right to disagree with their beliefs- they are trying to gain the same thing we all want: a place in the table.
Bashing gay priests -whom in many cases are our allies- do not help anyone. In the early years of AIDS, while there was a lot of shit comming from some stupid religious leaders, some Gay Priests quietly helped and conforted not only People living (and dying) with the virus, but their family members, and organizations like The National CAtholic AIDS Network, were created. Now a days even the NCAN has been hijacked by the conservatives, but a lot have been buit by quiet, obscure gay priests. Loosing them may be a great loos for the Church, but a potential gain for other more Christian denominations, that already understood that the power of God is not limited, like the mind of some religious leaders (P.Robertson, J. Fallwell, RATsinger, et. al.) are
posted by Anonymous, at
9/15/2005 5:57 PM
Now The Witch Hunt begins and all these fairy's in frocks will go out of their way to expose others while they try to save their sorry self-loathing asses. 'Tis time to get out of a church that proclaims as doctrine that gay men and women are intrinsically evil.
The way that I would like to see this issue dealt with, and I know, it will probably not happen, is that all gay people in this pathetic church leave voluntarily. That is, if they are not shamed by the church to stay closeted, which given their horrible track record, they probably are. Like most posts on this subject, the problem of sexual abuse has never been the fact that gays are in this church, it is the fact that desperate men resort to pedophilia when faced with a sexless life. There is not a human on this planet with sex organs and hormones in their body that does not have some kind of sex drive. I can understand how pedophilia became a problem and why these men resorted to it. I am not surprised at the witch hunt being undertaken as it is very typical of this church to embark on something this heinous and barbaric, it is like witnessing for ourselves, the times of centuries past. The time has definitely long passed for the Roman Catholic Church, hopefully, Rat Ass will witch hunt himself into redundancy.
posted by Anonymous, at
9/15/2005 10:45 PM
They should all jack off excessively into oblivion and do us all a huge favor. Celibacy is as unnatural as the institution that enforces it.
I just have to make a correction to Water Boy. Pedophilia does NOT result from forced celibacy; they could just as easily go out and find an adult. Now matter how sex-starved I was, I would NEVER have any desire to satisfy it with a child! I suspect many of these men were pedophiles before they went into the priesthood and probably even sought that profession out because they knew it would give them some type of protection as well as easy access to children and teens without parental supervision. The shame and guilt which they probably also feel may be someone expiated by becoming a priest (at least in their own minds). Gary (NJ)
posted by Anonymous, at
9/16/2005 1:05 PM
Regan, I couldn't agree more. The RC church is rotting from within from the top down, its like a cancer, slowly killing its victims and we're the ones that everyone likes to dump on for society's ills, shortcomings, failures, divorce, famines, pedophilia (exclusive to gays, ta-dah) wars, hurricanes, next they'll say pestilence. You name it, we're IT. The litany is unending, but then when you stand back and really take a look at it, its absurd and ridiculous and sheer lunacy. Unfortunately, this is the mindset that gave the mediocre halfwit in the White house the nod. Talk about the dumbing down of America, more like labotomized, and they'll probably do it a third time, sadly.
Gary, I agree that the perpetrators of sexual abuse were inclined to harm children prior to entering the priesthood. However, I do believe that the FORCED celibacy is a factor in this issue, but of course, it is not the sole cause, didn't mean to imply that. Celibacy by choice is a different kettle of fish, I myself went through a celibacy by choice a number of years back. I do believe that gay men are attracted typically to masculine adult males and not children. What the catholic church doesn't realize, in their infinite stupidity and hatefulness, is that gays are not the problem, pedophiles are and one does not equal the other. Pedophiles are impossible in most cases to identify and they fit no particular profile unfortunately.
posted by Anonymous, at
9/16/2005 7:39 PM
BC Waterboy: You are right about that. Overall from what my limited knowledge is on this, pedophilia is an overwhelmingly heterosexual disorder. But after the molestation scandals in the church many of which were or are gay-related, to the public at large it makes it seem as if gays hold the monopoly on it, ergo gay = pedophilia, AIDS etc which we know is not true. To digress a little, unfortunately, this is the mindset pervasive in the hetero electorate to a great extent. AIDS alone is still regarded as a gay disease to this day. Remember the Kimberly Bergalis story some years ago? She was the young woman who contracted HIV via her dentist using an improperly steralized syringe. As a result, she went on to get full blown AIDS and died. But before she died, she condemned gays for her predicament. Her parents, the mother in particular issued some venomous antigay slurs shortly after her daughter died and vowed to do all she could to get even with us. This is the mentality that we're dealing with today, especially on the issue of gay marriage and other civil rights.
I supposed if her daughter died from a drunk driver she'd have a vendetta out now on all bartenders and operators.
posted by Anonymous, at
9/17/2005 2:28 PM
Probably right about that, but it demonstrates the mindset that we have in our electorate. They're the ones who are truly mentally disordered, intrinsically evil if you will. We need to give it right back to them every chance we get. No more making nice or grovelling at the table for a few more crumbs. We've had enough.
You can all continue to encourage each other in your convient delusional belief that the abuse (85% boy teenage victims)has no connection to homosexual priests. Actually, i doubt you really believe it but rather you and the sympathetic media repeat it in hopes the hetersexual world will believe it. First the abuse of an adolescent is NOT pediophilia. It is the same behavior as we see in a significant portion of the lay homosexual population of a fixation on young adolescent boys. It is no secret in our community (San Diego)that gay men (I know of several) go on junkets to SE Asia to have sex with boys and the poorer ones pick up the Mexican teenage boy prostitues in the Park. DONT TELL ME GAY MEN DO NOT SEEK OUT BOYS AGES 12-17. THERE IS A CONNECTION BETWEEN SOME GAY MEN AND SEXUAL ABUSE OF ADOLESCENT BOYS. The little semantic joke the media and gay community are playing is that there is no connection between homosexuality and pediophite behavior. But this wasnt by definition pediohite behavior. I am not saying heterosexual men are not doing the same. However, the profile of the teenage or almost teenaage boys being 85% of the victims in this scandal points to homosexual activity. The smoke screen thrown up by the "experts' that homosexuality and sexual abuse of these teenage boys are not connected is only paid lip service to by anyone with an IQ over 70. The high rate death of priests with AIDS in the 80s and 90s is further evidence that the gay priest are not celebate. Im sure there are some hetersexuals who are having sex also but the bulk of the problem is men having sex with teenage boys. As noted this is a big theme in the youth orientated gay culture. NAMBLA may be a fringe but its goal of lowering the age of consent for boys are widely accepted in the gay community. I am very familar with these issues as my brother and my ex and several of my friends are gay. If the gay community doesnt stop lying to itself and depending on the media to lie for it, it will take too much rope and hang itself as it has in the case of the Catholic Church. You can fool some of the people some of the time....
posted by Anonymous, at
9/20/2005 11:31 AM
The word for sexual activity of an adult with an adolescent is ephebophile. There is a big difference between these molesters and classic pedophites. Basically many of the the former justify their behavior on the basis that the laws on sexual consent are wrong and that these are mutual relationships.Statistics show however a very elevated incident of suicide, drug and alchohol abuse and sexual acting out of these "older" victims. It is an example of the dark side of homosexuality,( along with the S&M, leather, group and annonomous sex with its resulting medical problems, etc.) that are well known to those inside the gay lifestyle but is glossed over by the media. The boy scouts, the priesthood, coaches, big brothers etc are no place for gay men. It is better that the whole gay community are deprived of these postitions if it will save the victims. The truth is getting out despite the coverups and people are seeing, if not yet speaking, the reality that gay men do molest children and we should not give them the opportunities to do so any more than we would give a heterosexual man private access to our daughters. The gay community have relied on misinformation, media manipulation, infiltration of the APA and name calling (hate mongers, homophobics) to prevent the consequences of the behavior of a significant number of its ranks. These truthophobics will be taken by surprise when these ploys no longer work to cover up the truth about the dark side of homosexuality. Interestingly enouogh, the studies done on sexual behavior of gays (as provided by gays) are the most condemning of all the evidence. The "outside the norm" sexual behavior and the very high number of sex partners of the average gay male are very well doctumented. Its no wonder AIDS spread so fast. Sadly that is another area that the media has deceived the public. While gays have threatened and clammered for a bigger piece of the health spending pie, the dirty secret is 2/3 of HIV+ gays do not tell their sex parteners that they are positive, thus being the primary reason for the spread of this disease. I wonder why we never see an ad about "informing your partner" . For all the complaints about the straight world "gay bashing" Gays have done far more damage to each other than the straight world has done. I know your "this is a homophope" antenna will be up and you will disgard this information. I suggest you quit intellectually masterbating each other and get out in the real world to find out the facts.
posted by Anonymous, at
9/20/2005 12:42 PM
I wonder what kind of letter "anonymous" would have written had the overwhelming molestations been perpetrated by heterosexual priests? I would suspect there would be none forthcoming. He equates homosexual pedophiles with all of us implicit in his remarks. Maybe he's desperately trying to convert to ex-gay, or maybe he's not even gay, but who cares.
Robert, your reply is so typical of why your position is so vulnerable. When confronted with the facts, you result to implying that I am a homophope and or that I have my own psycho-sexual problems and that is the reason this issue interests me. Also you misrepresented my argument. i did not say or imply that all gays abuse or wish to abuse adolescent boys. I did say there is a toleration for NAMBLA that would not exist in the open in the hetero world because there is much support (in the gay world ) for having sex with adolescent boys. It is a stong theme in gay porn and I myself have heard it discussed without condemnation by gays. What was Andrew Cunnans life about if not about older gays hooking up with high school boys? SOme of the best in San Diego were involved with that. If the Gay community doesnt want to be painted with the NAMBLA brush it should throw them out from under its tent. As I said, the day has not yet come where the hetero community would allow such a hetero organiaztion to march in its parades. Wake up and smell the coffee.. behind all of the political correctness people are seeing what is going on... Particuarly the younger generation who is resisting the brainwashing being attempted in school. Because the schools are trying so hard to make the gay lifestyle acceptable they suppress all opposition. That creates anger. Those "tolerance" programs are backfiring. I am around teenage boys all of the time and hear them venting their anger about this. It is another area where the gay community had an inch and is taking a mile.
posted by Anonymous, at
9/20/2005 4:14 PM
So there we have it, the antichrist in the Vatican describes gay seminarians or priests as suffering from a serious personality disorder. I wonder how he would describe hetero seminarians or priests who are pedophiles and/or ephebophiles. The double standards are so transparent, but that's the hetero way I suppose.
RObert, calling names is just childish. As for the Pope, I would hope and expect he would condemn any person of any persuasion who molested minors. But perhaps we should concentrate on the crimes commited, rather than trying to deflect blame by conjuring up other scenerios and trying to hide behind the old "its just homophobia" game.
posted by Anonymous, at
9/20/2005 5:41 PM
Anonymous, nameless one, whoever you are, what is going on in schools is not the promotion of hommosexuality but the issue of teaching tolerance and diversity. Those schoolboys that you are around venting their anger so much are the very ones who would probably be the perpetrators of antigay crime. There is rampant homophobia in schools, not because our lifestyle as some call it is being crammed down their throats but because of the antigay behavior learned at home by bad parenting and by others around them who are insecure about who they are, as well as indifferent teachers. Nobody comes into this world hating, it is taught from an early age. No gay school child should be subjected to taunts, slurs or violence which is often the case and in some cases fatal as a result of homophobia. As for NAMBLA, the overhwelming majority of gay and lesbian people would not support what they do. We cannot force anyone to stop what they are doing, and I don't recall ever seeing them march in any NYC gaypride event. I certainly don't condone it. As for a strong demand for it in gay porn, let met tell you that there is an equal amount of it in heterosexual porn to go around but I hear nothing about that. We don't need acceptance or approval by heterosexuals, there is nothing to accept. We as a group have been living with their homophobia since the dawn of the judeo/christian era. NAMBLA, with or without them would not put an end to homophobia.
Robert, I dont condone hate either. I am telling you that the middle and high schools in San Diego as well as the colleges do not teach tolerance. They dictate a pro-gay agenda that "tolerates"no opposition. The college courses on human sexuality are dominated by people with an ax to grind big time. Who else would choose to spend their life teaching and be so obsessed with such a narrow piece of the human pie. They are doing more damage than good by supressing any decenting spionions. Teaching tolerance is fine. Misusing ones authority and power as a teacher or prof. to attempt to change peoples value/belief systems is conter-productive and creates hostility. And yes NAMBLA is part of the Gay and Lesbian pride perades is San Diego.
posted by Anonymous, at
9/20/2005 5:58 PM
Robert, I agree with your comment about heterosexual porn. My point is that the Gay community although it cannot control NAMBLA, does not attempt to distance itself from those ideas. I have sat and heard many gays comment on how hot some 15 year old is and how theyd like to "do"them. I have never heard a heterosexual man have the guts to utter that kind of thing in a group
posted by Anonymous, at
9/20/2005 6:01 PM
It is unfortunate that a handful of gay men expressed themselves the way they did, but that alone does not speak for the majority of us. I believe the National Gay & Lesbian Task Force (NGLTF) has denounced NAMBLA on several occasions. The reasons why some heterosexual men in a similar situation might not be as vociferous in their admiration of young underage girls is the stigma and fear of being branded a pedophile, or far worse for them to be viewed as gay if they are so inclined. Nobody in their right mind would admit to that for obvious reasons. As to the existence of NAMBLA, no words of denouncement of their behavior by the gay community can put an end to it, only legislation can. It is up to the people of San Diego and elsewhere to let their elected officials and law enforcement know. I for one wouldn't tolerate a group such as this, gay or straight, nor would the majority of us.
Robert, I liked your response, some good points but I have to disagree that it is just a small minority of gay men that are interested in the young say 15-17 year old set. Three of my four gay teacher friends and one architect friend have been to bangkock thailand, more than once. The reason a straight male (age 25 and older) would not admit to going there or to an attraction to a 15-17 year old girl is becasue there IS so much condemnation in the straight community. I have not noted that gay males are hesitant to share their desires in a group of gays and that tells me it is far more acceptable in the gay community. The attitude I have heard is alls fair (down to say the age of 14) and dont get caught.I have heard my gay friends and brother and his friends defend the idea of lowering the age of consent and none of them belong to NAMBLA. If you are in the gay community you will know this is the truth. Im not saying you agree, but the idea is out there. Because my brother is gay, I have known some of these guys for many years and they seem to feel comfortable in discussing or joking about this issue in front of me. Some dont agree but their attitude is live and let live.
posted by Anonymous, at
9/20/2005 8:07 PM
I doubt if its the majority view and I would be careful implying that a majority of us support that. What people say or do are two different things. There are far more heterosexual men across the world soliciting young underage girls in prostitution rings, and not all heterosexuals speak up against it. In one or two states in this country, its permissible to marry a girl of 14 and impregnate her, even at 16. I don't think its right for a 14 year old let alone a 16 year old, yet I don't hear heterosexuals decrying that anywhere. They're children too haveing legally sanctioned sex. Be very careful in your generalizations, please. Enough said, no more.
Some interesting debate on an issue that started with a church that is "purging" gay priests in hopes of stopping pedophilia and sexual abuse. I have to disagree with comments from anonymous on a number of fronts. I would like to first take issue with the label of "lifestyle" that is thrown about largely by religous groups. I find that more offensive than any of the other despicable labels applied to us. Being a homosexual is no more a lifestyle than being a heterosexual, I would ask that you take a look at why you refer to gay people as a lifestyle. I do not believe that homosexuals are tied with pedophilia as you state and conveniently say that "some" are pedophiles. As I said in an earlier post, it is impossible in most cases to identify a pedophile and being a homosexual, does not make one a pedophile. My brother in law made advances on my neice when she was pre-teen and harrassed her continuously for years. This came out of course many years later out of simple fear. My husband and I made the challenge that if a given christian family were to leave their children in the care of a male caregiver and had the choice of us, an openly gay married couple, and John, a straight, married man with children, they would choose John over us, not knowing a thing about John's history and rejecting us because we are gay. Those children are in far greater danger from John than they would ever be with us because we wouldn't dream of harming a child. Sad but true in so many cases. I'm sick and tired of being tied to pedophilia because of who I am. A fact about pedophilia you may want to ponder anonymous is that most do not care if their victim has a penis or a vagina. I do agree with you on one aspect and that is that whether same or opposite sex, sexual relations with a minor is wrong and criminal. Robert made an excellent point about being careful with generalizations. I am appalled at the generalizations thrown at gay people just as much as generalizations thrown at others in society, such as the false connection between muslims and terrorism. Generalizations against us is understandable in some respects amongst persons who do not have gay family members or friends. That is due to being portrayed only in parades, and we are often painted by religuous groups as people who supposedly want to indoctrinate, convert, or what have you, the rest of society. Nobody can have their sexual orientation converted or turned off or on. That is such as ludicrous notion. Religous groups are becoming increasingly slanderous and incite hatred and violence, that includes the catholic church. If you would like some proof anonymous, take a look at the websites for the Westboro Baptist Church, Traditional Values Coalition, Focus on the Family, Lifesite, Concerned Women for America amongst others. These organizations spend a lot of time and money on inciting contempt and hatred towards gays in their false condemnation of "behaviours" not people. Make no mistake, it is people they are condemning. Gays are not trying to turn others on to a "lifestyle", we are trying to show others that we are fucking humans with a life and deserve to be treated with dignity and respect, not contempt and constant belittlement and judgement. That is why you may sense a frustrated attitude amongst some of us, including myself. My whole philosophy in life is that I live as a member of society, work, pay taxes, have familiy ties, and, just who happens to be gay and it matters not if someone approves or disapproves because it matters not if I approve or disapprove of them. We are all human and are all equal citizens in whatever country one comes from. And do me a favour and stop using that tired old "gay agenda" crap. Thanks.
posted by Anonymous, at
9/20/2005 11:49 PM
BC Waterboy: Thank you so much for your insightful piece. I've enclosing a link for the benefit of others from the National Gay & Lesbian Task Force concerning pedophilia, here it is: http://www.thetaskforce.org/downloads/childsexualabuse.pdf
To Anonymous and those who don't know how to view this document, simply highlight, right click your mouse and click on copy, then go to your browser window/address window at the top of your screen, left click to point the cursor, then right click to paste the link, then click on "go".
BC Waterboy: I'm still confounded as to why the RC Church isn't going after the straight seminarians who are pedophiles, ephebophiles, whatever. The pope characterizes gays as having a "personality disorder". What would he say of heterosexuals (and there were some who were involved in the molestation scandal.)? We hear nothing about that. The usual double standard when it comes to gays, so transparent, nothing but institutionalized homophobia, and they call themselves christians! He should extend the witch hunt to his bishops and cardinals, surely they're not above the law? Sheer hypocrisy, so typical of heterosexuals and their "lifestyle".
Robert, it is a double standard and one of contempt that the RC Church does not mention heterosexual pedophilia, which by numbers is a far greater problem. There are many double standards in that church on many issues. Regardless of what people like anonymous assert, this is a homophobic witch hunt.
posted by Anonymous, at
9/21/2005 9:01 AM
Absolutely, a witch hunt and blatant homophobia! We'll now see an upsurge in violent crime against gays now as a result of their vitriole. So much for their christianity and hypocrisy. Its nothing but a corrupt and morally bankrupt institution anyway, just like our present government. Its about power over minorities.
http://www.hli.org/homosexuality_not_molestation.pdf Robert, try this article and note the extensive bibliography. we can exchange websites all day but really all we need is common sense. I have seen what I have seen. There was a long biographical article on Andrew Cunnans life as a chicken hawk to older men. The older men were some of the most highly respected men in san diego including the owner of the San Diego Union, David Copely. Andrew Cunnan was not on the fringes of gay life in San Diego and neither were the many high schoolers who were his competitors for the money and glamor given to him by older men. This was and is mainstream stuff. If the gay community wants to continue to live in group reinforced fantasy land it will crash into reality some day. This is not about a witch hunt or homophobia or intolerance, this is about gay priests who were molesting teenage boys (85% of victims) and the gay hierarchy that protected these perverts over the young boys who they should have protected. Gay people do do bad things too. You cannot deny that many of the most prominent repeat molesters are Gay (some were in NAMBLA). They were molesting teenage boys while running gaybaths here in SD. The argument that these molestations have nothing to do with gay priests is just wishful thinking. Further the old standbye statistics about pedophites not having a sexual persuasion is warped. Sure there are more hetersexual pedophites, there are alot more hetersexuals than gays. but % wise gays more than hold theier own. The gay % of serial sex killers like Gacey, Kraft, Dahlmer, Bonnin and Lucas and tons more is a whole nuther story 43%. I suppose these were serial sex killers with no connection to homosexuality. getting back to the Catholic Church, If predatory heterosexual behavior is discovered in the Catholic Church it should and will be punished. However, in this situation it is clearly the lessor problem and you can be sure the hetersexual population will not defend the perps. as does the gay community. I say let them all go to hell. My question is why are you defending these priests? Its like the Blacks in New Orleans defending those that raped and terrorized their own people. You lack moral credibility when you hide behind the homophobic argument. I personally have very little use for the Catholic CHurch. It is no accident that it is them that has the biggest molestation problem (and what has surfaced is the tip of the iceberg being that very few men want their families to know that they were molested by a priest even for alot of money). The Catholic Church has always been about money and they needed alot of prists to run the parishes that fleece the flock. Oh, and i will not use the expresion homosexual agenda or lifesyle if you all will stop using the word homophobe. Its a clever way of disarming anyone who disagrees with you but it also suppresses communication and understanding and besides just because someone believes that homosexuality is a disorder doesnt mean they are a homopobe. I say live and let live if it is adults and no one is getting hurt. I also say all lifestyles are not equal. lThat does not make me ignorant or phobic. I know far more about the gay lifestyle than many non gays who support it and therefore by definition are not ignorant. As I said, use your common sense and not your wounded pride and group paranoia and quit defending a situation that is indefensable.
posted by Anonymous, at
9/22/2005 12:57 AM
I could comment, but I can see where this is heading, its doesn't warrant another response since you and I disagree on virtually everything, but thank you. I agree to disagree, strongly.
Thank you RObert for a civilized discussion. I wish you the best. west coast to east coast.
posted by Anonymous, at
9/22/2005 9:15 AM
The politics in the Christian Religion are rediculous and this is re-enforced by the Ratzinger's view on homosexuality. How does someones sexual orientation effect the way the love and apreciate God. The Bible teaches of forgiveness and to 'love thy neighbour' then surely even if Homosexuality is wrong to Christians it should be accepted and embraced.
posted by Anonymous, at
1/06/2006 4:50 AM
The interesting thing is how people will quote the Bible but deny that GOd wrote it and attempt to establish what they believe is right in their own minds. GOd says to forgive yes, but repentance comes first. The commited gay community is not repentant of their lifestle which is condemned as an abomination in the BIble. "Love" in the Bible or agape love is far from the kind of "love" we think of in the world. For example, studies have shown that gay men who r HIV+ only tell theri sex parteners, 1/3 of the time. Is this love? The bottom line is , we should love gays as we love any one, it is not for others to judege them, however, it is for Christians to have discernment, that is a deliniation of right from wrong, ANd God WIll judge this behavior , among many others, that he has clealy marked as wrong in the Bible. The problem gays have is that they are convinced that their behavior is right/mora;, and do not repent, thus blocking the works of GOd in their hearts. Most liars, cheats, adulterers, theifs, murderers etc realize their behaviior is wrong and therefore have a chance at repoenting and turning around. Sadly to say, all of the rationalizing gays,the APA, libertarians etc. does not change the fact that GOd comdemns homosexual behavior. Do u think that GOd cares or changes his opinion based on what u or I or the APA think? It says in the BIble that u can tell a tree by its fruit. The frequent fruit of homosexual behavior is a drastically shortened life span, depression,disease, multile short term relationships, childlessness, self centeredness etc.
posted by Anonymous, at
1/25/2006 8:43 PM
In response to "The frequent fruit of homosexual behavior is a drastically shortened life span, depression, disease, multile short term relationships, childlessness, self centeredness etc."
Being gay is not a choice. It is not a lifestlye. The Bible says a lot of things that devout followers do not abide by. However the homsexual reference is always considered written in stone. Therefore, this creates a great deal of self-hatred in gay people who feel they have nothing to loose and deserve nothing worthwhile. This overwhelming sense of apathy and depression leads to unsafe sex with multiple partners; "a drastically shortened life span, depression, disease, multile short term relationships" blah blah blah.
posted by Anonymous, at
5/16/2006 9:05 PM
