Thursday, March 23, 2006
In Afghanistan, Islam is like the mob - once you're in, you can never get out.
One man, Abdur Rahman, may face the
death penalty because it was revealed he converted to Christianity several years ago. The prosecutor in the case called him "a microbe" who "should be killed." Well, at least we know where the prosecution stands and we can certainly expect a well reasoned case.
Of course, the right wing in America is up in arms, as they should be. But, for the record, they don't seem to mind when gay people are being executed in Iraq, as they are eachday. As I have argued many times - if a place does not respect its gay citizens - it is bacwards and everyone is at risk. Places that murder gay people will also not think twice about executing religious minorities. That is just the universal law of barbarism.
Finally, after the hundreds of billions (some say trillions) that we have spent in the Mid East - is this what we get for our money? Did we shed so much treasure and blood just to see gays and Christians get whacked by "democracies?" As we continue to dump money into these ratholes, it is a question well worth examining.
56 Comments:
Very good question.
As President Besen, what would you do?
posted by , at
3/23/2006 12:13 PM
As President Chris L., I sure wouldn't walk around making a fool of myself on the international stage by saying that we have brought "freedom and democracy" to Afghanistan. On Nightline last night, I saw W do just that. I don't know what's scarier, the thought that he's a bald-faced liar or the possibility that he actually believes in what he says! Now a man is in danger of execution because he changed religions. This is what our soldiers are dying for?!??!?!?
posted by , at
3/23/2006 12:46 PM
Excellent, Chris...now what would you do about it?
(BTW, semi-breaking news on ABC:
"A newly released pre-war Iraqi document indicates that an official representative of Saddam Hussein's government met with Osama bin Laden in Sudan on February 19, 1995 after approval by Saddam Hussein.")
posted by , at
3/23/2006 12:58 PM
Big fucking deal. Rumsfeld met with Saddam Hussein and the US once supported Bin Laden in the fight against the Soviet Union.....Does this mean the US was complicit in terror?
Jeez - some people are so dumb it scares me.
Geoff G.
posted by , at
3/23/2006 2:39 PM
Even IF that's true, our govt didnt know about it; they still lied us into a war. And what about the other countries like saudi arabia and pakistan where islamic terrorist groups florish? Bush didnt attack them because he and his ilk have financial interests there. And what would *you* do as president KURT?; open concentration camps for gays where quack "ex-gay" therapy and a totally corrupted version of 'christianity' would be forced on us? And those who failed would undoubtedly be sent to those special showers.
BQ
posted by , at
3/23/2006 2:43 PM
EXACTLY! This new knowledge is just that...NEW. Bush didn't know it at the time. Kurt, you really need to listen to Wayne when it comes to these ex-gay ministries. Have you read his book? If not, give me your address and I'll send you a free copy. And again, please stop listening to Focus radio. It's propoganda in the name of Christ, and I don't think Jesus is too happy with James "you should beat your children" Dobson.
posted by , at
3/23/2006 2:58 PM
"open concentration camps for gays where quack "ex-gay" therapy and a totally corrupted version of 'christianity' would be forced on us?"
Ex-gay therapy is like Christianity.
It should NEVER be forced on anyone. Ever. (In fact, I'll venture to say that the best way to inflict maximum damage on all ex-gay ministries would be to make them mandatory. It would devastate them in a way that groups like the HRC will never be able to do.)
In fact, I'm going to venture that those who've left their gayness behind did so, eventually, for the same reason that those who've embraced Christianity and left their old life behind...because they see something better in store for them by doing so.
As for what I'd do as president...frankly, I'm still waiting for the Democrats to show me a better course of action than GWB has. Have mistakes been made? Indeed. Research American conflicts and see how many perfect wars we've ever fought.
I'm not smart enough to tell you how I'd do things differently than GWB. If someone shows me a non-kooked up way to fight terrorism more effectively I look forward to hearing it.
posted by , at
3/23/2006 3:03 PM
BTW, I just heard "hot candidate" Condi Rice has spoken with Afghan prez Hamid Karzai (sic?) in strong terms about the Christian convert facing death. ABC is reporting that she reminded Karzai that the country's new constitution guarantees freedom of religion.
posted by , at
3/23/2006 3:06 PM
Kurt, did you leave your gayness behind?
posted by , at
3/23/2006 3:15 PM
Chris L., never had it to begin with.
However, I know why I became straight...never has been that much of a mystery.
posted by , at
3/23/2006 3:26 PM
OK, why did you become straight?
posted by , at
3/23/2006 3:42 PM
Should that even be discussed on this thread, Chris? (Serious thread drift here...)
posted by , at
3/23/2006 4:13 PM
Yes, it should be discussed here. Now I want to know, in your own words, why you became straight. When you initially said, "I know why I became straight," you voiced no concerns about such an assertion being "off-thread". So, again, I ask, why did you become straight?
posted by , at
3/23/2006 4:19 PM
Nope, what I said was it (why I became straight) never was that much of a mystery.
posted by , at
3/23/2006 4:41 PM
OK so you became straight because why then? What is your final answer? The residents of Bentonville, Arkansas are waiting, as well as others nationwide! :-) WHY?
posted by , at
3/23/2006 4:43 PM
Chris, kurt is a pathetic wack job. I dont believe for a second that he's 'ex-gay' because no one BECOMES heterosexual. Whatever is hardwired into your brain at birth is what you are, even if it's bisexual, which is probably not the case with him. And if we assume that he is straight, it begs the question, why is he OBSESSIVELY reading this website morning noon and night? Whatever his sexual orientation really is or whatever he *pretends* it to be; he is one fucked up dude!
BQ
posted by , at
3/23/2006 4:50 PM
BQ, he's just one of millions who has been taught lies about gays and lesbians all his life. As a resident of a small town that doesn't have a large gay community, he's seen nothing else and is easily manipulated by people like Dobson. He sincerely believes that people "walk away" from homosexuality. He isn't trying to be hurtful.
But his presense on this site indicates that he may want to learn the truth. The fact of the matter is that if being gay were a choice, there would be no gay people and the world would be a lot less colorful. If Kurt were to move to a place like NYC, where he would see and interract with gays on a regular basis, he would come to see the foolishness of his position. I, for one, am willing to help him step into the light.
posted by , at
3/23/2006 5:05 PM
posted by , at
3/23/2006 5:21 PM
BTW, I didn't even know gays and lesbians existed until high school. My Dad and Mom were both active in theatre and worked with, I know, several GLBT individuals. But they were never discussed and certainly never insulted around our house.
posted by , at
3/23/2006 5:22 PM
Not sure who this Kurt is or if he is just joking. But I seriously hope you will get somep rofessional help soon.
Best,
A concerned psychologist who stumbled upon this site.
posted by , at
3/23/2006 5:40 PM
Anonymous, if you're a "psychologist" than Wayne Besen is secretly, happily married to Katie Holmes.
And if you're going to belittle me for the choices I made as a child from seeing a marriage as wonderful as my mother and father's, you're a very sorry, twisted individual.
posted by , at
3/23/2006 5:46 PM
Wayne,
Would you please ban Kurt already?? It is for his own good, really. He's obiously not normal and a frighteningly disturbed human being. I agree with the shrink, he needs serious therapy.
Sam
posted by , at
3/23/2006 5:57 PM
Kurt, thank you for your nice story. You say, "I was fascinated by their legs, the way they painted their toenails, their bodies..." Many gay people also dream of a family like yours, but instead of being fascinated by the legs of girls and their toenails, they discover that they are fascinated by the bodies and ways of other boys.
This causes great distress in the beginning, especially since we are raised in a homophobic society. All I'm saying is that you didn't choose to be straight. You did choose to embrace the sexual orientation that was naturally yours, which is apparently heterosexual.
Many gay people are so distressed by this that they go into ex-gay ministries. Within those ministries, they are spiritually raped and ruined. It has taken many years for some of them to recover and gain a sense of self-respect in light of people who tell them that they are an afront to God.
I am sorry that your dad died when you were 15. That is very sad and must have been horrible. But you didn't choose to be straight. It turned out that way, as it does for most people. Your parents' healthy marriage didn't determine your sexuality any more than a bad marriage makes children gay. If that were the case, half the country would be gay, since half the marriages end in divorce.
Some people on this board get very angry with you. I encourage you to meditate on the source of that anger. Could it be that some of us are angry because of the reaction that we have received from society? Gays and lesbians are thrown out of churches, jobs and even their homes. They are taught that they are spiritually inferior, and are told to change something that is not changeable.
posted by , at
3/23/2006 6:25 PM
Anonymous,
You can lie to yourself or to others but you can't lie to science.
A person is born with a sexual orientation. It is biological.
Sorry that your religious beliefs do not allow you to be the way you were born. I think that is sad.
You have been brainwashed by the radical religious right wing.
Or you are just an impostor faking posts.
Either way - facts are facts, your belief system or wishes notwithstanding.
You people who grossly misrepresent and intentionally lie about the nature of sexual orientation think you will win in the end?
Not in a million years. You can take that to the bank my friend.
G.
posted by , at
3/23/2006 10:03 PM
The last person to comment on this site said: "You can lie to yourself or to others but you can't lie to science. A person is born with a sexual orientation. It is biological."
Now, I'm not wanting to disagree necessarily, but I'm intrigued - so far as I'm aware, the jury is still out on the whole "biological determination of orientation" thing. Would G be able to give the title of the journal article or study which shows homosexuality (or indeed heterosexuality) to be biologically determined?
posted by , at
3/23/2006 10:52 PM
The evidence is conclusive that it is biologically determined. I guess the jury is still out, the same way it is for left handedness being biological or the "theory" of evolution.
Look, "M" the facts are the facts. The evidnece is overwhelming and conclusive. Period. If you question otherwise, you simply have not done your homework.
There are even books out on it "M". So get your pinhead ut of your fat ass and look on hte Internet, you lezy fuckwad.
M.J.
Ohio
posted by , at
3/24/2006 12:36 AM
Chris,
That's very gracious words of you, especially about my father.
But there's a bit of a problem. I was there in my life the entire time. I lived it. I know what I was seeing, and what I was choosing.
I didn't choose to be straight. But I became straight as a result of my cumulative choices. (I can remember knowing why I became straight when I was 17, and I'm much older than that now.)
Chris, is there a lot of hate here for the Queer by choice people? I've heard a gay man in Atlanta who said he chose to become gay on a talk show before.
posted by , at
3/24/2006 10:10 AM
Chris, also...isn't truth valued in the GLBT community?
I thought one was supposed to be true to himself? To not "live a lie"? To "be who he is"?
posted by , at
3/24/2006 10:51 AM
Yes, truth is valued, but sometimes it is difficult to have a mature conversation due to the actions of people on both sides of the debate. One point: you were angry when someone on this board belittled your mom and dad's relationship. Well, we gays are repeatedly told that we are gay because of a bad upbringing. We are told that a "absent father and dominant mother" made us this way. How do you think that makes US feel, especially since most of us love our families as much as you love yours? Think about it.
posted by , at
3/24/2006 12:03 PM
Hmmm...good point, Chris. I wish that every GLBT kid has had or will have as good of parents as I had (who loved me like they did.)
But getting back to "truth"...I get concerned when I see even the possibility of same-sex attraction being a result of choices/nurture being systematically eliminated from any debate on this.
Two cases in point:
1. The Gallup Youth survey which you and I discussed on a different thread. The researcher clearly stated that a major subfinding of his work was that nearly 6 in 10 13 to 17 year olds believe gayness is a result of nurture rather than nature.
The GLBT links that I found for his survey made no mention whatsoever of this nature/nurture question. It's their publication(s), and their right to edit a press release as long as it isn't misrepresenting anyone. But I found that interesting that they didn't even want to mention this. (I can find some links if you want.) Then there is;
2. Cheryl Swoopes, who led Texas Tech to the 1993 women's NCAA basketball championship and was a WNBA star. She came out about her relationship with a female coach a few months ago in an interview with ESPN. However, in that same interview she said that she didn't believe she was born gay and never seemed to believe she was until she fell in love with her current partner (Ms. Swoopes is in her 30s, I believe.)
When I posted the link to this elsewhere, a gay friend (somewhat the activist) notified me that Ms. Swoopes' words about not believing she was born gay were being edited out of even the original links on her story.
Chris, I think evangelical Christians should understand how difficult it is to leave one's gayness behind. I think they should be made aware that some people may (may) not lose some of their same-sex attractions, and in fact I have heard evangelists saying this in recent broadcasts.
If we evangelical Christians are going to be honest, be told the truth and say how difficult it is for many to lose ss-a, why are some taking it upon themselves to decide to withhold the truth about people who believe GLBT people aren't born that way (i.e. the high school kids surveyed by Gallup and Ms. Swoopes)?
I'm sorry GLBT people have been hurt. We all have been hurt in one way or another.
But in matters of truth, shouldn't whatever is good for the goose also be good for the gander?
posted by , at
3/24/2006 12:38 PM
You still didnt answer the question kurt: if you're heterosexual, WHY ARE YOU HERE?!?!?! Around the clock!!!!!
And you're totally wrong about the choice thing. I was attracted to men and boys as far back as I can remember. I distinctly remeber playing in the sand on the beach with my bucket and shovel and being attracted to and facinated by the half naked adult male bodies around me, and that was BEFORE I ever found out that 'girls dont have peepees'. This is a biochemical process in the brain and *not* a choice. You were turned on by big boobs and painted nails, i liked and still like muscled hairy male bodies.
And the 'hate' you think exists here is born out of centuries of toxic shame and merciless oppression. We see your constant homophobic and ill informed remarks on this site as yet another invasion of our space. Wayne let's you post here, but your 'christian' side would be the last ones to let us in; note the Equality Ride bicyclists who were arrested repeatedly for coming onto the campuses of those fake christian schools. Jesus NEVER would have done nor allowed that kind of hate!
B. Queer
posted by , at
3/24/2006 2:04 PM
Kurt, I see so clearly why you believe what you believe. Christian radio, Internet sites and television shows routinely present you with out-of-context non-sequiturs about gay people. They shine a bright spotlight on things like Swoops and attempt to generalize those exceptions into a total picture of gay life. You and other evangelicals engage in which psychologists call Filtering. You can believe what you want, but they are lying to you, Kurt. They do it because they want your energy, money, and vote, and my guess is that you give them all three.
posted by , at
3/24/2006 2:25 PM
B. Queer,
You bring up some fascinating points.
- Remember when Wayne linked to the Lee College Equality ride article a couple of weeks back? And how some yay-hoo defaced the riders bus?
Were you aware that some Lee College students, apparently many of whom were the same ones who interacted with the riders even if they didn't agree with their viewpoints, volunteered to help clean the grafitti off their bus. Apparently the students and the riders had some good dialogue.
- Sir, you may not have read all that I posted to Chris as to WHY I attached significance to female bodies, based on decisions I made before I started "noticing" girls. How many straight men have you spent significant time with? Have you ever noticed how fascinated they are with, er, anatomy? (And who's got the biggest "anatomy"?) You usually see this more from elementary school on up through the 20s, but if being interested in male bodies made one gay, I'm guessing 80% of the male population (if not more) would be gay.
What makes a man gay (if there is such a trait) is when he becomes romantically attracted to men. I'm not speaking for you. I know why, though, based on choices I made I set myself up to be romantically interested in women.
- Jesus was all about love, and truth. There are a lot on the pro-gay side who, sadly, don't want truth to come out when someone believes that they weren't born gay.
Why?
posted by , at
3/24/2006 2:29 PM
Chris...there are a lot of pro-gay people today (Mr. Besen included at times, sadly) who don't mind hiding truth and spreading untruth.
What in turn do they want from you?
posted by , at
3/24/2006 2:31 PM
Kurt, you can believe what you want, but again, the fundamentalists are using you. And to my knowledge, Wayne is not spreading untruths at all. Wayne is a hero, as is anyone who steps forward in the face of stupifying lies and rampant untruth and dares to attempt to correct it.
posted by , at
3/24/2006 2:41 PM
Chris,
So you think Wayne never lies, and never has spread false information far beyond this blog?
(Not trying to insult you...just asking a very frank question.)
posted by , at
3/24/2006 2:57 PM
I do not think that Wayne, in his capacity as Administrator of this website, spreads lies, no.
posted by , at
3/24/2006 2:59 PM
Interesting, Chris.
When a few weeks ago Wayne posted a message about evangelical Christians being "anti-sex". I posted four links that directly refuted that claim. They weren't anti-gay in the least, and I was not insulting to him, but that post got deleted.
Why would he want people to think evangelical Christians are "anti-sex" when a quick search of ecC web sites can easily disprove that?
Can you vouch for Wayne elsewhere than his capacity as administrator of the web site?
posted by , at
3/24/2006 3:04 PM
Posting four or forty links doesn't refute anything. A lie is a purposeful, malicious misrepresentation of a fact. What you have with Wayne is a disagreement. At worse, Wayne could be incorrect, but that is different from lying. America is, in fact, very puritanical and immature when it comes to sex. Kurt, you miss the forest through the trees.
posted by , at
3/24/2006 3:09 PM
Careful, Chris...you've been hurt enough. I don't want to see you in further pain.
BTW, semi-breaking news relevant to this thread...former senator Bob Kerrey (D-NE), chairman of the 9/11 commission, says his commission's conclusion that there were no "operational" ties between Iraq and Al-Qaida may need to be re-examined in light of continuing classified Iraqi document releases.
posted by , at
3/24/2006 3:29 PM
HAHA, I am not in "pain" and you have not hurt me with your assertions.
posted by , at
3/24/2006 3:39 PM
Chris, I wasn't trying to hurt you nor did I MEAN to hurt you...I've always thought from your comments you sound like a confident, secure man. I mean "pain" caused by people on your side of the GLBT-rights issue lying to you.
But now that you mention it, why did you tell Gary on a different thread that if you had to go it alone without the support of this community you couldn't make it? You sounded like a hurting man.
posted by , at
3/24/2006 3:45 PM
No, you are mistaken...again. There is a difference between being hurting and being tired, which is what I get sometimes after debates like this. I *am* glad that I don't have to go it alone. Thankfully, many gays and lesbians are willing to speak up. And I repeat what I said to Gary... I am glad that I do not have to go it alone.
As for lying, it is the fake Christians that you listen to who are lying to YOU. I urge you to abandon the fundamentalist lifestyle and step into the light! Kurt, you can be free! Stop giving those people your ear.
posted by , at
3/24/2006 3:54 PM
Why, I am free now.
I can accept straight people. And gays. And ex-gays. I am not in bondage to my sexuality, or an identity derived from same. And I am filled with joy, and hope, and optimism.
You sound like you can only accept two of the three types of people I described above. And maybe only one. I've never doubted anything you say about yourself. Yet you claim to know that my sexuality was inborn and not a result of my choices. You sound enslaved, and bitter, and angry.
posted by , at
3/24/2006 3:59 PM
Kurt, I don't base my identity on my sexuality and I am not "enslaved". Sometimes yes, I do get angry at the nonsense thrown at the gay community. I think healthy people do feel anger at things like that. Your fundamentalist friends sure get angry a lot.
And you are right, I don't believe that people "choose" their sexuality. I think you may sincerely believe that you "chose to be straight," but I think you're full of baloney. And you are right on something else, too! I don't accept "ex-gays" as real and legitimate. Quite frankly, I think the whole ex-gay thing is a laughable joke.
posted by , at
3/24/2006 4:12 PM
"And you are right, I don't believe that people "choose" their sexuality. I think you may sincerely believe that you "chose to be straight," but I think you're full of baloney. And you are right on something else, too! I don't accept "ex-gays" as real and legitimate. Quite frankly, I think the whole ex-gay thing is a laughable joke."
Chris, assume I'm telling truth for a moment. (I am, but you just said I'm full of "baloney" so I know where you stand, and I appreciate your honesty.)
We are created as sexual beings. But how would the fact that my sexuality arose in every measure from choices I made, repeatedly, from early childhood on up affect you? Especially since you're a secure gay man? I don't see how my sexuality being fully a result of my choices would affect you in the least, or your partner, or your happiness.
As for ex-gays, I know some. Would you like me to introduce you to them?
posted by , at
3/24/2006 4:21 PM
Kurt, my good buddy, it's not that your choices, whatever they may be, affect me. There exists a larger issue of ex-gay claims, and that is what affects me. Plus, this is a debate site and I choose to assert what I believe is truth, as do you. I must say that the gays and lesbians on this board could ask YOU the same question, sir! How does our sexuality affect YOU? Ah ha!
As for the ex-gays, I already dialogue with some and we debate from time to time. I was on the debate team in high school, and that's why I don't go nuts when someone has a different view. I think it's fun and exciting, in fact, and I don't feel at all threatened by a person like you.
But I am not close enough to Bentonville, Arkansas, to receive a personal introduction to "ex-gays". But if you knew me, you would know that I would not shy away from it. I will meet anyone IF I want to meet the person, if that makes any sense.
posted by , at
3/24/2006 4:31 PM
Chris, I don't doubt that you wouldn't shy away from such a meeting.
As for your question: "How does our sexuality affect YOU? Ah ha!"
It doesn't. ">)
May I ask what the larger ex-gay claims are that affect you?
posted by , at
3/24/2006 4:33 PM
Kurt, the entire anti-gay political agenda would be crushed; it would fall apart if Americans believed that sexual orientation was innate and not changeable. The belief that one can become an "ex-gay" is extremely valuable and advantageous to the fundamentalists. As for meeting "ex-gays," not only would I not shy away, I would relish it. But would you meet with ex-EX gays?
posted by , at
3/24/2006 4:44 PM
Sure, I already have.
Conversely,
What would happen if it were proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that sexuality was not inborn/genetic, and indeed changeable (though not easily so)?
I'm not afraid of sexuality being proven to have a genetic/inborn connection. I think said truth, were it to happen, SHOULD be announced. Self-knowledge is always a good thing.
If the converse would be proven true, Chris, would you want that truth to be broadcast as well?
posted by , at
3/24/2006 5:19 PM
Kurt, I am about to leave work, but YES! Whatever the truth is, that is what *must* be broadcast!
posted by , at
3/24/2006 5:23 PM
Thanks, Chris.
posted by , at
3/24/2006 5:31 PM
Chris honey stop spinning your wheels with this cement head kurt; he's already wasted enough of our time. And kurt you STILL didnt answer my question for the umpteenth time, if you're straight as you *claim* to be
W H Y A R E Y O U
H E R E !!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????
B Queer
posted by , at
3/25/2006 2:45 PM
BQ, I love a challenge! He is here for some reason, I guess. But I am still boggled by his belief that he "chose" to be straight. ;-)
posted by , at
3/25/2006 2:49 PM
Why does it boggle your mind, Chris?
As I said, I've know this for decades, and it's no big deal. And I'm not the only one, gay or straight, who sees that we've come to our sexuality this way.
B Queer, this is a fun place to talk. Wayne B. is a fascinating guy to listen to.
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