Wayne Besen - Author, Activist, Columnist, Public Speaker

Thursday, September 14, 2006

There is this little evil cult church on South Beach where young people are recruited to jump around and bang tambourines like wild savages while condemning other people. South Beach Ministries is all fire and brimstone and no love. They are all about the death of Jesus and don't seem to care much about his life and message.

But, I will give them credit for one thing: They are great at marketing.

South Beach is a party town that attracts a lot of interesting characters. Knowing the marketplace, this demonic ministry has wisely gone after the skater/meth crowd. First, they lure impressionable messed-up kids with modern music. Then, they hand out a slick card that proclaims, "BODY PIERCING SAVED MY LIFE."

This headline is followed by the text: "He was pierced for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities (ouch). The punishment that brought us peace was upon him and by his wounds we are healed. If you accept JC's piercing (JC???? hahahaha) in proxy for your sins you will have a more abundant life now and an eternal one when he returns. If you reject Him now then you will have to pay for your own sins. The penalty for Sin is death. (Ouch, again)

Nothing like the power of scaring the daylights out of rolling ravers! Talk about a buzz-kill.

62 Comments:

Yet another example of weaponized religion.

Will people ever learn to ignore these loonies?

Patricia Hansen
Portland, Oregon
posted by Anonymous, at 9/14/2006 1:06 PM

It appears that the church you are talking about is affiliated with the Assemblies of God. With 52 million members worldwide, the A/G cannot exactly be considered to be a "little cult church".

(As a side note, my grandmother was one of the earliest members of the A/G in 1914 in Arkansas).

The ouch statement is actually a quote from the Jewish Scriptures: Isaiah 53:5. Christians consider it to be prophetic about Christ.

I probably would not find this church to be to my tastes either docrinally or in worship. And considering that they have an Exodus link on their site, it is likely that I would not feel welcome nor would I find their understanding of scripture to be well researched or theologically consistent.

But there's hardly anything nefarious about target marketing to an audience or trying to structure a church to be relevant to a demographic.
posted by Timothy Kincaid, at 9/14/2006 3:11 PM

Also, I do criticize churches for a willingness to claim to be Christian while simultaneously ignoring the teachings of Jesus Christ. However, the sole unifying tenet of Christian faith is the emphasis on the death of Christ as redemption for sin.

In other words, ALL Christian churches are "all about the death of Jesus". If they are not, they are by definition not "Christian".

This is evident in all the imagery of Christianity and the holy days. The cross is the symbol of the faith and Easter (the anniversary of the crucifiction) is the holiest day of the year.

This particular church may seem to be more evangelical in their approach, but even the most liberal of Episcopal churches will tell you that the crucifiction and resurection of Jesus is the heart of their belief.

If you have discomfort with this belief, your discomfort is with all of Christianity. Which, of course, is certainly your right.
posted by Timothy Kincaid, at 9/14/2006 3:22 PM

Tim,

Not all of us Christians ascribe to the Mel Gibson, "Passion Of The Christ", bloodbath-of-the-century kind of theology that predominates in the world. Personally, I have NEVER been fixated on the crucifixion. Neither was anyone in my family. Sure, there was a crucifix mounted over the altar in my church, but never anywhere in my home, and my home was devout. The focus for me has always been the teachings of the Christ, the example of His life, and the Good News of His resurrection. Resurrection was certainly the theme of our Easter celebrations, that and my Grandmother Jacobs' delicious deviled eggs!

In my Baptist church, we had re-enactments of the last supper every third Sunday, but never did I ever see "passion plays" with people pretending to hang from the cross. If violence, gore and death had been emphasized as the core of my faith, I would have quit the church long before I did! I don't feature necrophilia in any way, shape, or form, and you can't sell it to me by camouflaging it in religious doctrine. Granted, there are lots of people, probably a majority, whose faith is focused on the killing of the Savior, but that hardly means morbidity and death is the proper focus of Christianity. My faith is a Living Faith, I worship a Living God, and when I think of Jesus Christ, I think of the Good Shepherd tending to His flocks. That's my take on Divine salvation, and I don't expect it to ever change.
posted by DC HAMPTON JACOBS, at 9/14/2006 4:40 PM

Of course the bottom line of the Christian faith is the resurrection of christ. But I do agree with Wayne, that a religion that does not adhere to the teachings of Christ hardly has the right to call itself a Christian denomination. Because it's all drawn up into one package. I call myself Christian because I try to follow the teachings of the man, not because of the promise of an afterlife. As a result, I enjoy the writings of the Gnostics and I am fascinated by the Book of Mary, neither of which will ever be found in any church that focuses on the death above the teachings, rather than putting them all into the same package which is, or should be, Christianity.
posted by jekelhyde, at 9/14/2006 8:45 PM

"If you have discomfort with this belief, your discomfort is with all of Christianity. Which, of course, is certainly your right."

Timothy, I don't think that a psychotic obsession with blood, guts and death is representative of the churches I have visited. The ones I have attended focus on loving the neighbor. This church has created a Friday the 13th Jesus and this, I think, is objectionable.

On another note, great research on the NARTH people on the ex-gaywatch site. I enjoyed reading it.
posted by Wayne Besen, at 9/14/2006 9:59 PM

Thanks, Wayne.

I've not attended that particular church so I can't really opine about whether they are sidetracked by a gospel of gore. Of course, they probably think they "love their neighbor", too.

Unfortunately, so many churches think you love your neighbor by taking away his health insurance, his marriage rights, his kids, his job protection, his freedom and sometimes his life. Like you I think they need to realize that you can't claim that Jesus was redemptive sacrifice but we can all just forget what he had to say. What kindo of bizarro doctrine is that?

I think many Christian chuches would be much happier if Paul had "died for their sins". They like his rigid-structure and intollerant approach much more than the "treat people good and love them" approach Jesus taught.

Regardless of whether you believe Jesus was savior (as Christians do), a rabbi (as many Jews do), or a prophet (as muslems do), we could all use a little more of his "do unto others" doctrine and a little less of the "rebuke the sinner" doctrine that segments of all religions seem so fond of.
posted by Timothy Kincaid, at 9/14/2006 10:50 PM

Everyone celebrates their religion differently. Wait till you hear christian rap music! I think if they are reaching a unmet need that helps young meth heads, then go for it. It's not a hate club, is it? AoG - doubt it. That's paranoia creeping up. Not understanding someone is not a reason to fear them.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/15/2006 2:42 AM

Those of us who are Christian don't misunderstand groups like South Beach Ministries. We understand them completely. They are misguided. They are perverting the Gospel. You can't preach it just any old way you want to. It has to come from a place of love and charity. It sure as sh** can't come from fundamentalist, semi-masochist or fetish-loving places! It can't lead people to those kinds of places, either. True conversion can't lead anyplace other than directly to the Christ, and from there to the Living God.

Timothy, you've hit the nail squarely on the head! Pauline doctrine is the culprit behind much of the intolerance and hatred that exists among professed Christians. I know of ministers (TD Jakes is one) who actually value the Apostle Paul's teachings over those of Jesus Christ! And Paul himself warned against doing such a thing in his first letter to the Corinthians: "Has Christ been divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?" This is a total perversion of Holy doctrine, and the media, which portrays Right Wing theology as definitive, needs to recognize it.

Jekelhyde, I also find great wisdom in Gnostic scripture, and some of my favorite verses come from the Gospel of Mary Magdalene. Do you remember the one about taking heart from the diversity of nature? That's one of them. Every Lesbian and Gay Christian should read Gnostic scripture, particularly the Gospel of Phillip, the Book of Thomas, and the Secret Book of John. There is AMAZING information about homosexual orientation in those books.
posted by DC HAMPTON JACOBS, at 9/15/2006 10:22 AM

You apparently follow a different set og Holy Text than what this church in Florida follows. Why is it so hard for people to see theat people believe different things, follow different texts etc... It's as if you are actually selling a new religion? You want people to give up the one they have for the new one you have.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/15/2006 9:39 PM

But the Gnostics were deemed heretics by the Christian heirarchy. As a result, their writings aren't read by mainstream Christian denominations. Which, in my opinion, shows that the Christian "Establishment" is mostly political. This would be the reason they all interpret scripture the same way. Certain demoninations have broken away from this mold, but the churches are less structured which scares away some would-be parishoners. Wayne is right. This South Beach church has it. They have a brilliant advertising rep.
posted by jekelhyde, at 9/16/2006 12:28 PM

There's room for different interpretations of the Christ's message, room for different traditions and methods of worship. However, anyone who tries to integrate hatred of one's fellowman into the Christian message is perverting that message, and a perverted Christian message is no longer Christian. We who love the Lord can't tolerate our faith being counterfeited!
posted by DC HAMPTON JACOBS, at 9/16/2006 1:26 PM

Someone else's faith is not your faith. And you cannot take someone else's faith. Read the scripture - gnostics, pauline, gospels, ot.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/17/2006 1:42 PM

I hear what you're saying, but I'm not certain if I understand why? Can you please elaborate?
posted by jekelhyde, at 9/17/2006 3:14 PM

There are lots of things about different religious sects that just bug me and that I think are incorrect. I'm certain that most people on this blog feel the same. However, if I am to insist on my religious freedom (that may seem incorrect to others) then the only way I can see to get along and find some place of similar interest is to (instead of changing everyone - which is highly unrealistic) is to accept that we have differences and leave it at that. Instead of accusing others (although they may do that to me) I can find places of similarity and ask to be left to my beliefs as I have left them to theirs. If I am christian I do not accuse Jews of their lack of belief in my belief. If I am Muslim I do not accuse Christians of believing in false prophets. If I am Jewish I do not accuse Christians of making a God out of a rabbi. I accept that we are all pointing towards a God - the God of Abraham. We do view things differently. My Buddhist neighbors are left to their shrines, and my athiest friends are content with their days. Getting over involved in the discussions of counterfiet beliefs, false Gods, hate religion is not a good discussion to bridge gaps. Face it - this world is FILLED with many different hearts and minds. We are going to be different on many different levels. Accusing others of flasity, etc.. accomplishes nothing except contempt.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/17/2006 3:40 PM

Agreed. Absolutely. But this post is about various aspects of Christianity. And I believe that within a particular faith, there is room for debate. And within scripture, there is room for various interpretations. And from what I've read, all of the posters have been respectful of other religions. The debate is in what Christianity is actually about, and whether "Christian" sects who preach hate are actually following the teachings of Christ. So I guess I can't understand what has upset you so.
posted by jekelhyde, at 9/17/2006 3:55 PM

No - not everyone here has been respectful.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/17/2006 4:30 PM

Assuming that this little church in Florida is a hate group just because they post an EXODUS link on their website is over arching defensive.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/17/2006 5:10 PM

Tell me what comments you see as disrespectful. I don't seem to be seeing things the same way that you are.

The statement that was made about the Exodus link, simply stated that the poster would probably not be welcome in said church, nothing else.
posted by jekelhyde, at 9/17/2006 5:15 PM

If I'm baking a pineapple cake, it sure as sh** ain't gonna be a pineapple cake if I let you substitute raspberries for pineapple! Mix any part of Christianity with intolerance, bigotry, hatred and/or heterosexism, and IT IS NO LONGER TRUE CHRISTIANITY! Exodus Ministries is a hate group, plain and simple. If a church advocates for Exodus Ministries, it has mixed its message with hate and thus invalidated its legitimacy as a Christian church. This is not a question of "different interpretations," "different hearts and minds," or anything like that. "Anonymous" is trying to find room within Christian doctrine for Satan's teachings. There is no room!
posted by DC HAMPTON JACOBS, at 9/17/2006 5:56 PM

Christianity is split into many sects, muslims are split into many sects, Jews are split into many sects. People will see things differently. You may not like it - but it does not mean that that group is counterfiet or false. They are as legitimate as anything anyone else thinks up.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/17/2006 8:04 PM

I think the tenant of Christianity is that Jesus of Nazareth was the messiah - or the Christ. Now, however a group interprets the rest of the bible may not be appealing to someone. That is true. But it does not take away their religion. You may not want to join their group. They may not want join yours. Who's to say who is counterfiet? God and God only. I have heard some strange things over the years. And I don't agree with most of it - but it does not mean that I criticise if you do not see things my way - does it?
posted by Anonymous, at 9/17/2006 8:10 PM

Perhaps, Stuffed Animal, that group is ignorant of the entire message of EXODUS and they just put it up there to help??? You are so quick to attack anyone who see things slightly different than the way you do? That's not the the community of diversity and tolerance that I once knew.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/17/2006 8:12 PM

Other Anonymous- Stuffed Animal is an insecure man. He needs patience and compassion. He is still working through his victim role. Eventually, he will out grow this phase. In the meantin=me, he will be hostile to anyone who does not see things as black and white as he does.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/17/2006 8:28 PM

Not seeing homosexuality as you do does not make them a hate group. When they attack you for being gay - then they are a hate group.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/17/2006 8:34 PM

I don't actually see Exodus as a hate group. I think they are horribly misguided. I think they fabricate a bit too much. But mostly I see them as a political organization, rather than a Christian organization as they claim to be.

That said, I do think we need to fight against hate groups who lay claim to christianity. A perfect example is the Westboro Baptist Church, ie. Fred Phelpps and company. Any so-called Christian who wishes another human being death is not following the teachings of Christ. I do not, however, condemn Christians who misread the bible and believe that homosexuals are pure sinners just because of the nature of our being. For these people, I offer a dialogue and a challenge. I challenge them to open the bible and READ IT. Don't pick the verses that your minister hands to you and take his translation as law. Read the book and see what it says to you. And read the books that were kept out of king james version of the bible, ie. the Gnostics, the book of Mary, Phillip, thomas, etc. And study the historical times in which this book was written. I challenge them to open their minds and attempt to understand for themselves. If, when they finish, they still believe I am a sinner for loving another man, we will just have to agree to disagree and I mean them no ill will. We will all find out the truth in the end.

And, if you would, I am still waiting to find out where someone on this post was disrespectful of another religion. Please tell me your opinion. If I was the disrespectful party, I would like an opportunity to defend my words.

thank you,
darren
posted by jekelhyde, at 9/17/2006 10:43 PM

Once again, Wayne's anonymous posters act as apologists for ex-Gay organizations and religious sects that mangle Jesus Christ's teachings. Challenge them, and they whine about being disrespected, and accuse others of being "insecure." I find that hella hilarous, coming from cretins who lack the self-confidence to put a name to their posts!

The way you react to Gay people who have a low tolerance for bullshit is the very definition of insecurity. How dare you complain about not being shown respect? How respectful is it to promote groups like Exodus Ministries on a Gay weblog? How respectful is it to try to convince Christians that their faith incorporates hate rhetoric? You don't deserve even a modicum of respect! Contempt is what you deserve, contempt is what I'm giving you, and if you intend to keep doing what you're doing, you'd better learn to like the taste of it!

Every day, there are more Lesbians and Gay men who get fed up with Right Wing appeasers, apologists and soft-sell bigots like yourselves. Don't think selling your miserable agenda to us is gonna get any easier. Not a chance! It's just gonna get harder and harder for you to do. You're gonna get so many bites taken out of your arrogant asses, you'll think somebody set a kennel of pit bulls loose on you! Why don't you con artists just throw in the towel now, and save yourself a lot of stress?
posted by DC HAMPTON JACOBS, at 9/18/2006 9:55 AM

Anyone who believes that Exodus International (sometimes known as Exodus Ministries) isn't a hate group should read this excerpt of the Policy Statement on Homosexuality from its website, www.exodus-international.org:

"EXODUS is a Christian (sic) organization dedicated to equipping and uniting agencies and individuals to effectively communicate the message of liberation from homosexuality, as well as how to effectively convey support and understanding to individuals facing the reality of a homosexual loved one.

EXODUS upholds heterosexuality as God's creative intent for humanity, and subsequently views homosexual expression as outside of God's will. EXODUS cites homosexual tendencies as one of many disorders that beset fallen humanity. Choosing to resolve these tendencies through homosexual behavior, taking on a homosexual identity, and involvement in the homosexual lifestyle is considered destructive, as it distorts God's intent for the individual and is thus sinful."

My one-word summary of this policy statement: Demonization.
posted by DC HAMPTON JACOBS, at 9/18/2006 11:20 AM

SA - Haven't you already been reprimanded from another blog about your defensiveness and hate.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/18/2006 12:14 PM

In other words, Stuffed Animal, you hate them.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/18/2006 1:01 PM

First of all, I am neither a child nor a servant, I don't tolerate arrogant people attempting to reprimand me. Second, I'll be defensive as long as you continue to be offensive. Third, if I were you, I'd inspect the contents my own heart before accusing other people of harboring hatred in theirs.
posted by DC HAMPTON JACOBS, at 9/18/2006 1:12 PM

Likewise, Stuffed Animal, I suggest you do the same. And I guess you have not read the entire post on another blog that was dedicated entirely to you about your attitude and how it scores of hatred and bigotry.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/18/2006 2:05 PM

If you are not a servant then you are not a Chrisitain as we are servants to one another and to God.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/18/2006 2:08 PM

Rarely do I care what other people say about me, and I never care if the people talking are bigots. Commentary is only as legitimate as its source. I imagine a lot worse will be said about me before I'm done. People aren't used to having their notions of heterosexual supremacy challenged, and I mean to challenge them at every turn. If they don't like it, then tough titty.

If you're truly a Christian (which I doubt), you'd better concentrate more on your Bible study. Familiarize yourself with Jesus Christ's teaching about the impossibility of serving two masters (Matthew 6). God is the entity I'm commanded to serve, not you or any other human being. As much as you want me to be your servant (and I'm sure you want it very, very much), I'm afraid you'll just have to settle for me being a thorn in your side.
posted by DC HAMPTON JACOBS, at 9/18/2006 2:45 PM

Brother? Where art tho? You need some good friends to talk to. You sound in need.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/18/2006 3:22 PM

Well, Fred Phelps and his group are truly hateful. Do you know they believe that even if someone was gay and then was not gay that that person still deserves to be stoned!! These kinds of people really scare me. My mother used to get hate mail from Christian organizations. She shielded me from much of it. But she couldn't stop all. There are some aggresive hateful groups out there. And through the years I have learned to live my life. Everyone wants something - whether it is your devotion, your allegiance, your mind, your value system etc... Many, many groups want you to fit into their little idea of what is right. Any deviation from that seems to rock the boat. Hence, I don't belong to any.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/18/2006 5:58 PM

I guess there are varying degrees of hate. I've always considered a hate group to be one that wished me dead. Groups that want me changed and seek to deny me rights if I don't change are indeed hateful, but not to the extent that I would fear them. I merely pity them and their closed mindedness, and I hope that someday something will open their eyes.

As far as not questioning someone who does not see things the same way as I do, I personally feel an obligation to point out where my viewpoint may differ. And to those who say there are no counterfeit Christians, I have one word for you, Jonestown. If you are too young to remember it, look it up.
posted by jekelhyde, at 9/18/2006 7:12 PM

Well, Davidians, Jonestown, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Catholics, Protestants - all call eachother heretics. Some of these are considered cults. But calling the general christian a counterfiet because they do not see things your way??? That's right up there with just plain old name calling. There are christians out there that do not drink, have sex before marriage (any marriage), do not commit adultery of any kind, do acts of kindness towards others etc... and some do not think homosexuality is what God intended and they do not beat up gays either. That does not make them a hate group. It makes them a different group than gay christians or christians who believe that homosexuality is fine.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/18/2006 7:19 PM

But where is the problem with me expressing my opinion and attempting to gain some common ground? What is the problem with me challenging people to actually read the Bible, and coming to their own interpretations, whether they be the same as mine or not? What is the problem with dialogue, debate, and possible understanding? Under your premise, we shouldn't discuss the Bible at all unless it is with someone who agrees with us completely, which would make bible study discussion groups very very boring. Obviously, I don't think that homosexuality is sinful. Is it wrong for me to express my opinion and let them know why I disagree with their minister's interpretation of the word? Is it wrong for me to let them know that gay people are not the fornicating perverts that their ministers tell them that we are? Should I not attempt to allow them to see me as a person first and a gay man second, and attempt to establish a dialogue regarding the Bible that many of these groups believe they are acting upon?
posted by jekelhyde, at 9/18/2006 7:50 PM

And for the record, if anyone was a false Christian, Jim Jones certainly was; and Kuresh to a lesser extent. But Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Catholics, and protestants are mainstream religions that I would never consider false. Unfortunately, some within their midst, I would consider false. And not just false Christians; false human beings. Humanity should be the one thing that binds us. Groups such as EXODUS, which, as I stated, I do not refer to as a hate group, per se. They wish to see us as anything but human, turning them instantly from religious to political.
posted by jekelhyde, at 9/18/2006 7:58 PM

I don't think it is wrong to express your opinion. I think it is wrong for anyone to impose their opinion or try to enforce their opinion for others to accept as their own. Everyone see thhings differently. And you have certainly not imposed on me.

I was trying to avoid saying this directly - but in light of your feelings I will. There is another poster here who is insisting that his religion is the one. He has made some very strange statments about his religion as if it was the only truth. I was trying to say that we all have ideas that are different and to respect those differences. That individual is as fanatical as the fundamentalists in that he is trying to force feed his beliefs onto others. He is not merely standing his position but rather trying to impose them on others.

JH - my comments were not to you directly - and I agree with everything you have said. I was trying so hard to speak in general terms. God knows, I have my own ideas about God and religion. I don't often share them as this is such a personal issue. And I just cannot stand when someone else is telling me what to believe. My best is to live and let live.

I abhor the fundamentalist christians as much as I do any who tells me that I do not pray right.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/19/2006 1:24 PM

I think - also that some ( I reiterate - SOME) these groups who do not accept homosexuality really do see the human first. And I can see how a person can interept the bible to be accepting of homosexuality - I know gay theology. But just as homosexuals don't like being pounced on for thier ideas - niether do I. I get pounced on by both sides. Huh? Go figure.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/19/2006 2:03 PM

Excuse me - the theology that supports homosexuality - from a Christian perspective.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/19/2006 2:05 PM

I've made my position on Christian doctrine very clear. You can portray me as intolerant all you want, it won't change the nature of the Gospel. There were no loopholes in Jesus Christ's message for hatemongers to wiggle through. An ex-Gay ministry can claim Christian identity until the cows come home; the claim will be just as false when that last heifer enters the corral. The main difference between us (besides the fact that you're an agent provocateur and I'm not) is that I don't comb the Bible for content that justifies harboring prejudice against groups of people. If I did, God forbid that I would be so scandalous as to try and pass myself off as a disciple of the Christ!
posted by DC HAMPTON JACOBS, at 9/19/2006 5:49 PM

I must disagree with you, anonymous. I do feel that most people see me by my actions rather than my status as a member of the human race. It's not their fault, I feel. It's just the way they are taught. That is why I make it a point to take the highest of high roads with these people. If they see me as a human being..well perhaps they can learn something. It brings to mind a few years ago...I was at a NASCAR race in Richmond VA. I was sitting next to a guy with a t-shirt that read, "SILLY FAGGOT, DICKS ARE FOR CHICKS" with the Trix bunny on the front. By the end of the race, he and I were sharing my cooler of beer and he told me that I was OK, for a queer. I took no offense. STep in the right direction, I think. My thing is that if they know me, as a person, then perhaps if they meet another gay man, they will remember me, and know that he, too, is a person.

As for the person that you think is disrespectful, I also disagree. I only wish that I had the strength of faith that he has. I don't want to defend him, because he doesn't need for me to defend him. He can do that himself. His strong faith is admirable. His belief is that sexuality is a blessing from God. And he will defend that belief to the bitter end. God bless him. I adore his interpretations of the scripture. If only my faith were as strong. But my father, who is as just as strong in his religious convictions as the person of which you speak, has not managed to strengthen my convictions.

That said, I love the Bible. And I love the books that weren't included in the King James Bible. And I believe that most people, as good hearted and good intentioned as they may be, have not read the book. So the verses they cite are out of context, both historical and biblical.
posted by jekelhyde, at 9/19/2006 8:57 PM

I'm sorry you feel that way JH. But there are people who are christians out there who do think of you as a human. As far as the lack of respect - I ,too, admire anyone who stand by their faith -even if I do not believe it. But He has constantoly attacked me without investigating my beliefs. Calling myself a christian has just made him make all sorts of ssumptions about me - specifically. He said I was spilling messages from Satan. That's pretty harsh. Too bad. There really are people who are christian who do not believe that homosexuality is what God intended for themselves and believe that people have a right to protected rights and freedoms and yet he has accused me of everything I do not stand for. Hmmmm. That's not standing by your religion that making a personal attack on an individual who has never voted against the gay community. So there is a difference between personal attacks that are not substantiated and standing up for your religion. And I do agree with you - there is a HUGE number of people who have not read the message of Christ - grace, mercy, compassion, love for your nieghbor, etc... very carefully - nor do they practice it.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/20/2006 4:14 PM

I see where you are coming from and I hear you loud and clear. The problem is that too many gay people of faith are on a consistant defensive mode. Their fight or flight reflex is always at the forefront. They've been told time and time again that being gay is completely contrary to being Christian and they, being as strong in faith as any non homo, feel a need to defend and sometimes to defend violently, figuratively speaking. And again, although I know we've been over this a million times and I understand your stance, your anonymous persona makes you suspect to any in defense mode. If my faith were as strong as his, I may be in the same place as he is. Or I may just be like my father who's motto is.."Think what you like. We'll all find out in the end."
posted by jekelhyde, at 9/20/2006 9:26 PM

You father is sooooooo right on!
posted by Anonymous, at 9/20/2006 11:08 PM

You know JH - I understand the fear and the anger. Remember I have been there. But I don't have to accept it. I am ashamed of the political figures in this country who have hi-jacked my religion.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/20/2006 11:16 PM

I find it iteresting Wayne that you would post statements on the internet that you have no way of knowing if they were true or not. Have you ever attended South Beach Ministries? If not then where are you getting your information from? I have attended SBM and I saw absolutely nothing like what you are stating. Maybe you should post truths instead of non-truths. Maybe you should investigate before you draw conclusions. Do you believe everything you hear? A good journalist publishes facts no matter how they personally feel about them. Just because you might not agree with a religion does not make them a 'cult'.
posted by Anonymous, at 11/15/2007 9:20 AM

I am the pastor of South Beach Ministries. I was really surprised to find a blog discussing us, especially the way we have been mischaracterized. Please allow me to speak for ourselves and see if I can clarify some misconceptions.

First, I would like to apologize for the hate which has been shown to the gay community from many within Christianity. Whether misguided or just mean, it is wrong.

Next, being an Exodus affiliated church means we are not hateful towards homosexuals. If you visit our church, as many gay people have, you will find that we are a safe place, where all people are treaded with love and respect. However, being affiliated with Exodus also means that we believe the Bible is clear that homosexual practice is a sin. As a place full of sinners saved by our Creator’s grace I would invite all people to join us as together we seek to reach our potential by being spiritually committed to God through Jesus Christ.

Biblical theology on this issue is too involved for me to type out with two fingers. Besides, as a pastor I am a general practitioner. Let the theologians be the experts.

The kook in Kansas would hate me as much as he hates gays and deserves no further mention.

“Body Piercing Saved my Life” is about Christ’s sacrificial love for all of us.

The gathering of teenagers that you witnessed is a yearly event. These young people come from all over the U.S. for one week of discipleship. They sacrifice their time and money to feed the homeless, pray for people, entertain children, sleep on the floor, and share God’s love. They work downtown, in Overtown, trailer parks, and South Beach. The actual event you saw was a praise rally and I know there was no fire or brimstone involved. (Although hot Miami Beach nights sometimes seem that way.)

I am sure that we do have disagreements. Many would involve valid and important issues. I work hard at not making assumptions nor mischaracterizations. I ask your forgiveness when I am wrong. If you are gay and want to be gay I respect your decision, while at the same time believing that homosexual acts are sin. I know that it is not a “choice” in the common understanding of the word, but I also believe that God did not make you that way. Those who have unwanted same sex attractions and would like to change should also be given respect and their chance to pursue the life that they believe is right for them. For those individuals I would be available to pray, counsel, encourage, and love.

Finally, God loves each one of us just as we are. God also loves us too much to leave any of us as we are. Our Creator always has more for us.

Peace,

Pastor Mario
posted by Pastor Mario, at 11/15/2007 10:00 AM

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