Friday, July 20, 2007
More than 250 conservatives are calling on the American Psychological Association to "consider religious diversity" in gay patient therapy. The effort is being led by unlicensed Christian counselor Warren Throckmorton.
In a June 29 letter, officials from Focus on the Family, Southern Baptist Convention and other groups said APA officials should instruct psychologists to weigh equally the sexual orientation and religion of patients.
"We strongly believe that psychologists can offer a valuable service if they respect the religious commitments of their clients to the same degree that they respect sexual orientation diversity," the letter said.
The letter comes as an APA task force begins a review of current scientific research on conversion therapy, or treatment that purports to turn gays straight. A report is due sometime in 2008 or beyond.
Gay rights activists, however, are encouraging the APA to reject Throckmorton's overture.
Wayne Besen, founder of Truth Wins Out, an organization that opposes conversion therapy, said the letter advocates "a religious exception to ethical psychology."
He said although the letter does not mention conversion therapy, it makes a thinly veiled attempt to create a loophole through which such therapy could be advocated.
"The bottom line is your sexual orientation cannot change and your religion can," Besen said. "This letter fails to address that simple truth."
81 Comments:
I'm holding my breath on the APA report. It would be disastrous for us if they cave in to the religious right as well as the selection of Holsinger as surgeon general. Anyything can happen between now and 2008, even the unthinkable, another republican victory! I shudder to think.
posted by , at
7/20/2007 9:52 AM
"Consider religious diversity?" What a joke! The signees of this letter are the same people who've made it their life's mission to see us all imprisoned and/or put to death!
It's scandalous to even suggest that a meeting with these genocide for Jesus mongers is a possibility.
Here's a link to the "letter."
http://www.citizenlink.org/pdfs/apa_letter.pdf
posted by , at
7/20/2007 1:04 PM
Michael Glatze will be on Signorile's radio show today (4:30p est): http://www.siriusoutq.com/
posted by CW, at
7/20/2007 3:02 PM
If Throckmorton and his bunch wants the APA to do anything, then they need to acknowledge the fact that the "ex-gay" industry is a product of folks trying to undermine the lgbt community. And they need to distance themselves from groups like Focus on the Family and Exodus International. Until they do, a gnat has more credibility than they do.
posted by BlackTsunami, at
7/20/2007 8:15 PM
I agree with you on that BlackTsunami.
These guys are kooks and should keep away from the APA.
posted by Scott, at
7/20/2007 10:38 PM
Personally, I think the APA will take a small step in the wrong direction and concede something to these morons since its never declared outright and categorically that ex-gay ministries are fraudulent.
posted by , at
7/21/2007 8:03 AM
If they cave, gay rights orgs need to chainsaw them with protests until the APA reverts back to the current position.
posted by , at
7/21/2007 10:16 AM
Many people don't remember the 1973 APA convention. Millions of people were "cured" overnight of a disease under which they felt just fine. That was the first blow to their credibility. Then the conservative homophobes--Bieber, soccarides (father of a gay son!!!)-- tried to force a re-vote, and they were unable to do so. Like the religious position-- some think we're sinners and some think we're just fine-- there is no logical or scientific consistency in this. It is all a matter of which way your prejudicial wind is blowing.
give the ufndies and inch in this and they'll take six---so to speak.
posted by , at
7/21/2007 11:39 AM
To digress, another right wing hyppocrite follows Vitter. Don't you just love it?
Robert, NYC.
http://www.charlotte.com/407/story/204465.html
posted by , at
7/21/2007 1:49 PM
Science should never consult religion to determine a scientific question (such as, is reparative therapy safe or efficacious?). Science made little progress until it broke free of the bonds of superstition and dogma, and we should never allow religious zealots to interfere with freedom of inquiry and science.
To the anonymous poster of 7/21/2007 7:22 PM, I certainly can't speak for the moderator of this board, but I know from personal experience that "change" is a chimera, and attempts to change only cause deep pain and sorrow. (The moderator, of course, is the author of a feisty book that very convincingly makes the case that the ex-gay movement is largely fraudulent, or at best a well-meaning dismal failure. You should read it.)
posted by , at
7/21/2007 10:45 PM
Can anything be more obvious than the notion that "religious" indoctrination is often behind the pain and suffering over sexual orientation that drives many members of the GLBT community to seek therapy? And what about the decades in which parents could enforce such therapy on their gay children, demanding that their chosen religious beliefs for their child be honored OVER the child's sexual orientation?
This letter from con-artist con-servative "religious" organizations is worse than ridiculous - it is an attempt to directly harm gay citizens by demanding that religious beliefs, which are imposed on children,be used as an excuse to promote mental abuse. It's like a step back into the 1950's.
Perhaps the religionists would "get it" if someone proposed that "religious belief" be defined as a mental illness and those indoctrinated into evangelical families should be introduced to the 'diversity" of religious beliefs which don't encourage hate.
I have long felt Throckmorton's nonsense was little more than an attempt to sweetly support a force commitment to an indoctrinated "religious" belief as justification for promoting misery over sexual orientation. In the same manner in which the Right could care less if someone is really "cured," (because to them image is always more important than substance), their commitment to harassing the human dignity of all citizens is the real moral outrage.
That the Right also considers this a serious letter/proposal is even more hilarious. Given the difficulties in heterosexual marriages and the rather large numbers of people who walk right out of a church when the denomination doesn't agree with their decision to divorce, one wonders why there are not large religious advocacy groups demanding that professional associations (and the law, for that matter) FORCE straight people to consider equally the religious commitment made by these people before God with the state's marriage contract.
The fact that these charlatan "religious" groups have not sent those letters to every state legislature is an indication of how fraudulent and phony their philosophy really is - and underscores how devious and evil their agenda remains to this day.
posted by , at
7/24/2007 10:04 AM
Kevin, to digress a bit, if the right wing bigots, republicans and democrats don't want us to have the right to marry, then maybe we should start forming a movement to make them realize how absurd and discriminatory they are by supporting a ban on divorce in every state and make marriage absolute without exception. No annulments either. Otherwise, they should be refused a marriage license. After all, divorce IS forbidden in the bible! These straights want it all their way or its the highway, at least as far as we're concerned. About time we turned the tables on them and give them a dose of their own medicine.
posted by , at
7/24/2007 1:23 PM
Robert, I would urge you to do a bit more research before making certain claims. When you don't you end up looking as untrustworthy and dishonest as the "conservatives" you often rightly expose as ignorant, irrational, and inconsistent.
You here claim, despite past correction, that "divorce IS forbidden in the Bible" (emphasis yours). That's simply not true. While the Bible does clearly indicate divorce is not God's ideal and is more often than not sin, divorce is permitted (note: permitted, NOT commanded) under the Law of Christ for martial unfaithfulness and the desertion of a Christian by their non-Christian spouse. Certainly reconciliation should be the highest priority in these circumstances, but divorce is nonetheless permitted.
posted by , at
7/24/2007 3:53 PM
AJ, i don't know what bible you read but I was raised Catholic and in our bible, divorce is clearly not permitted.
In the marriage rites in my former church, one of the lines states....what god has joined together let no man put asunder.
Adultery is also forbidden, one of the commandments, but the religious hypocrites who cheat on their spouses choose to ignore it, but vote to ban gay marriage.
posted by , at
7/24/2007 4:09 PM
While there are differences between the Roman Catholic Church and say, reformed Christian fellowships, on issues of biblical authority, the extent of the canon, and the inspiration of the Apocrypha, I'm sure Robert in your research of what the Bible actually says - i.e., not what the Roman Catholic Church says it says - you read verses such as these:
Now when Jesus had finished these sayings, he went away from Galilee and entered the region of Judea beyond the Jordan. And large crowds followed him, and he healed them there. And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?" He [Jesus] answered, "Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate." They [the Pharisees] said to him, "Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?" He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery" (Matthew 19: 1 - 9).
There is no question that divorce is not God's ideal and that more often than not divorce is a sin. But your claim Robert was that "divorce IS forbidden in the Bible" (emphasis yours). That is simply not the case. As shown in the verses cited, the Christian is permitted (note again Robert, "permitted" and not commanded) to divorce his or her spouse in cases of sexual immorality. Your claim wasn't what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, it was a claim directly related to what the Bible teaches. And that claim was an error.
There is no question that there are "religious hypocrites," just as there are non-religious hypocrites. But demonstrating that a particular professing Christian or adherent to a certain ideology is a hypocrite says nothing about the merits or truthfulness of the religion, faith, ideology, or worldview.
posted by , at
7/24/2007 5:11 PM
i think the argument here emphasizes a point that should be made.
There are so many different interpretations of what the Bible says that it is up the individual person to decide which is correct for his or her life. That being said, trying to use a "Biblical" basis to attempt to influence policy at the APA (which is what this issue is about despite what you are told) is not feasible.
posted by BlackTsunami, at
7/24/2007 7:58 PM
I think the argument here emphasizes a point that should be made.
There are so many different interpretations of what Black Tsunami or Robert or Wayne says that it is up to the individual person to decide which is correct for his or her life.
posted by , at
7/24/2007 9:10 PM
Well AJ, whatever versions of the bible one reads or interprets, I find it quite revealing that right wing christian bigots and others selectively use Leviticus to discriminate and villify gay relationships, yet selectively omit references that do not put heterosexuals in a very good light. They claim they believe in the scripture when it comes to Leviticus but ignore verses that permit polygamy, allow the killing of one's spouse, children. Many of them selectively ignore the commandment of thou shalt not commit adultery, nothing but hypocrites and bigots If adultery is forbidden according to the commandment then lets stop adulterers from remarrying, lets see how they like being denied the right to marry (again).
posted by , at
7/25/2007 8:19 AM
Nice try Robert. Look, if words have any meaning, the claim you made was wrong - plain and simple. The most honest thing you could do is hold your head up and admit that you were mistaken.
And I largely agree with you concerning some professing Christians using God's Word selectively and inconsistently and using the "Law unlawfully." When they do so, you and I ought to charitably show them their errors.
For example, you highlight the Mosaic Law, specifically Leviticus. As I have pointed out in the past, the clear teaching of the New Testament is that the Mosaic Law has been made inoperative with the sacrificial death for sin and Resurrection of Jesus the Messiah. The Law of Moses, all 613 commandments, does not have authority over the Christian.
The Christian's "rule of life" is the Law of Christ. The Law of Moses and the Law of Christ do have many similar commandments, but this doesn't mean the previous "law" is still in effect. So, while nine of the Ten Commandments are found in the Law of Christ, this doesn't mean the Law of Moses is still in effect. After all, there are many differences as well.
As I agreed with you before Robert, there is much hypocrisy on all sides of politics and in all religions. I try to address it at every opportunity I have within my area of influence. But I also feel it necessary to address mistakes and fallacious reasoning being used by any side. And that it why I addressed your claim concerning divorce in the Bible. How we address these issues in the "polis" is another matter.
posted by , at
7/25/2007 11:36 AM
AJ, the major socalled christian religions, Anglicanism and Catholicism both cite Leviticus to single out gay people for discrimination and villification. Lets not deny it. Its their modus operandi especially among evangelicals and they use it with impunity more than any other reference. The ten commandments are at the core of most christian denominations and/or sects.
However, neither of the two have addressed the issue of adultery which according to the ten commandments is forbidden, yet both belief systems say they believe in the scripture and in the commandments. No religion can cherry pick verses in both old or new testaments to justify discrimination solely and deliberately against one group while ignoring others that directly impact heterosexual behavior in a negative way. You can go on quoting whatever you like ad infinitum, it serves no purpose nor does it address the double standard let alone the hypocrisy.
posted by , at
7/25/2007 1:32 PM
WOW! - a reply like that REALLY makes one wonder if you even read my last comment(s). Robert - I agree with you on the hypocrisy, inconsistency, convenient selectiveness, and often "uncharitableness" of far too many professing Christians!
That's a different issue than the one I initially was responding to, however. You said "divorce IS forbidden in the Bible." I demonstrated from the Scriptures that this is not the case. If you can't admit such a clear error here, how can you possibly call for others whose errors you rightly expose to admit their errors?
posted by , at
7/25/2007 2:10 PM
AJ, in the catholic church in which I was raised, but no longer a believer (in any religion or sect for that matter) divorce IS forbidden. Whatever the bible says about divorce, who gives a shit? If I'm wrong, I'll concede it, but quit the patronizing attitude. My former church teaches that divorce is not allowed, plain and simple.
Now how about adultery? The commandment states that its forbidden. Yet people do it over and over and remarry. That to me is a mockery of marriage, adulterers are the real threat to marriage, not us.
I think you would do a lot better showing heterosexual adulterers the errors of their ways AJ. Your time is really wasted here because we can't get divorced because we can't get married or commit adultery in 49 states, besides nobody agrees with anything you say, but you're entitled to your beliefs. Am finished with this argument.
posted by , at
7/25/2007 4:07 PM
Robert, there's no reason to read a "patronizing attitude" into what I've said. That's not my intention at all sir. Just as you don't like it when your views in particular or worldview in general is misrepresented, neither does a Bible-believing follower of Jesus Christ appreciate it.
Discussions and debates should be done openly and in intellectual honesty. And if and when we're wrong, we ought to say so in the same forum our errors were made. Had you said the Roman Catholic Church forbids divorce (even that isn't technically correct) I very likely wouldn't have commented. But that's not what you said.
Concerning adultery, it's a sin. It's wrong. It's immoral. It's a transgression of our Creator's Law and contrary to His will. I think Christian fellowships should enact church discipline on an unrepentant adulterer just as they should on an unrepentant homosexual. And, if I came across a blog that claimed adultery is not forbidden in the Bible, I would surely point out that error.
posted by , at
7/25/2007 9:49 PM
AJ, the RC church does NOT permit divorce, if you're inferring that annulments are an alternative, they are not.
In Italy, divorce is allowed at the civil level, the church does NOT permit it or recognize it and divorced catholics are automatically excommunicated and cannot receive the sacraments either.
posted by , at
7/26/2007 7:58 AM
Good morning Robert! Yes, Rome certainly dances around the issue of divorce in the Bible in interesting ways (e.g., their uses of sacramental matrimony vs. "unsacramental," annulments, the civil law, etc.). As one who has discussions and debates with Roman Catholics fairly often, this doesn't surprise me at all. Sophistry through and through, as Martin Luther and others have noted on several occasions :-)
As I've said previously Robert, I too am a former-Roman Catholic. I was raised a Roman Catholic and even went to Catholic school. Like you, I've left the Roman Catholic Church, and while I don't doubt for one second that most Roman Catholics are sincere and have a zeal for God, their zeal isn't in accordance with their Creator's revealed truth.
Like the Reformers, I hold the Roman Catholic "Church" to be an unbiblical form of Christianity that has, tragically, deceived millions of Roman Catholics. The more I study the Scriptures and the more I study what Rome officially teaches, the more I'm convinced that the foundational doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church twist, alter, and/or distort the finished work of Jesus' death for sin and Resurrection, the meaning of worshiping and glorifying our Creator, ecclesiastical authority and Biblical authority, and much more. In the end, it's my contention and conviction that the Roman Catholic Church preaches and teaches a false gospel ("good news") that is powerless to save men and women from God's judgment on their sin.
posted by , at
7/26/2007 11:46 AM
AJ says: "Concerning adultery, it's a sin. It's wrong. It's immoral. It's a transgression of our Creator's Law and contrary to His will.
I think Christian fellowships should enact church discipline on an unrepentant adulterer just as they should on an unrepentant homosexual.
And, if I came across a blog that claimed adultery is not forbidden in the Bible, I would surely point out that error."
___
I've been watching this conversation between you and Robert, I can appreciate much of what's been said.
To a great extent AJ, it sounds like you're arguing over semantics. The Bible says, paraphrased; What God has joined together let no man set apart.
This could easily be taken as a condemnation of divorce. Point being, most anything can be justified by the Bible. I know you know this.
Divorce itself may not be condemned in the Bible, but the separation of "what God has joined together" is condemned. So you're both right.
I can understand the need for the acknowledgment of error, I just don't see the need for it here.
And so I jump in now because of the quoted portion above.
"And, if I came across a blog that claimed adultery is not forbidden in the Bible, I would surely point out that error."
Do you mean to tell us that you've NEVER come across a blog that claimed remarriage is not forbidden in the Bible? This form of societally institutionalized adultery is so accepted, how would you know unless you asked?
And regarding this:
I think Christian fellowships should enact church discipline on an unrepentant adulterer just as they should on an unrepentant homosexual.
What exactly is your definition of the "unrepentant homosexual."
posted by , at
7/27/2007 9:36 AM
Emproph, thank you so much for your comments.
With respect to AJ's comments, they are part of his belief system and conviction that his interpretation is correct and he is entitled to that, but I would say that most gay christians don't subscribe to any of it. No religion has the right to say it knows the truth or the true interpreation of the bible. Nothing can be proved, whatever is written. Its all open to interpretation except when it comes to discriminating against and judging our people. The majority of all socalled christian denominations or sects all concur on that quite conveniently, but they ignore with impunity references that put them in a bad light because it makes them uncomfortable or it doesn't fit in with their way of living because they're in the majority.
Notice how none of the mainstream religions condemn Mormonism, a sect that espouses polygamy, a practice that in fact is permitted in the bible? The state of Utah looks the other way even though it is supposedly illegal in that state.
posted by , at
7/27/2007 9:49 AM
Good morning Emproph! Glad to hear you appreciate the conversation between Robert and me. You and I would have had a discussion some time ago concerning some comments you posted on Alvin McEwan's blog, but my comments were not allowed.
Words used and assertions made and definition utilized are the sign of careful and critical thinking. To simply reply when challenged, "Well, it's only a matter of semantics," is a retort normally without much merit. Words have meaning, and therefore you're quite mistaken to say that "most anything can be justified by the Bible."
A moment of serious contemplation Emproph should have been enough to demonstrate the absurdity of the basic premise of this argument. Language has meaning. A statement can be constructed so that its meaning is uncertain and/or ambiguous, and therefore it may seem to support two contradictory ideas. In such cases, the uncertainty or ambiguity of the statement would be readily apparent to anybody reading or hearing such a statement. No one would be deceived by or even pay any attention to a statement that has no clear meaning.
Your claim, however, goes even beyond asserting that the Scriptures are contradictory or ambiguous at certain points. You appear to assert that ANY idea can be derived from the Bible AND logically justified.
If that were actually true Emproph, then for that reason alone the Bible would be the most extraordinary book in the whole world - for no other piece of writing can justifiably be taken logically to mean anything a person chooses!
If you seriously still cling to this assertion, I challenge you to construct a sentence which can logically be justified to mean ANYTHING anyone wants it to mean.
No word has an endless variety of meanings; much less could a sentence or paragraph of many words put together in meaningful sequence be made so as to support hundreds of conflicting ideas. Such absurd claims demonstrate to me how badly people want to be able to dismiss the claims and clear teachings of God's Word and what irrational ideas they will embrace in the process of doing so.
Bringing it back to the original discussion, Robert said "divorce IS forbidden in the Bible." Did you read the verse from Matthew 19 I provided above? In it, Jesus acknowledged with the Jewish leaders that the Law of Moses permitted divorce, but this was not the Creator's will from the beginning when He made them male and female. Under the Law of Christ, divorce would now be forbidden except for marital unfaithfulness. In that case it would be permitted, but not required.
Now unless you deny Emproph the law of noncontradiction and the law of the excluded middle and deny language and words have meaning, Robert's claim was simply in error and we are not "both right." I didn't point out his error to "patronize" him. He seems to be a sharp guy. While I obviously don't agree with him on everything, I do hold him to the standard I would expect people to hold me too.
You ask two separate questions regarding adultery and remarriage. First, I didn't mean that I'd never in the past discussed the issue of when divorce or remarriage is Biblical. People will rarely claim that adultery per se is not forbidden in the Bible. When adultery relates to divorce and remarriage, however, this is a topic that comes up and yes I have discussed it. And I would agree that too many Christian fellowships take a much weaker stance on this issue than they do on homosexuality. That's inconsistent and I assure you I insist on consistency out of love for our LORD and love for others.
My definition of an "unrepentant homosexual" is (surprise) one who refuses to repent of homosexuality. It's one who refuses to agree with God's Word that homosexuality is a sin and a transgression of their Creator's Law and, based on this, refuses to cease sinful activity in this regard (i.e., turn away from it and turn to Christ and His will).
posted by , at
7/27/2007 11:13 AM
And good morning Robert! You write that "[n]o religion has the right to say it knows the truth or the true interpreation of the bible." It that statement itself true? Can one have a true interpretation of what you just wrote?
"Nothing can be proved, whatever is written." Can that statement be proved? It's written, right? Can it be proven? If yes, the statement defeats itself. If no, it's meaningless and wasn't worth writing.
And you claim that "mainstream religions" aren't condemning Mormonism?!?! Where have you been Robert and what are you watching/reading? I and other Christians have been debating Mormons on their unbiblical doctrines for years (some decades - the late Walter Martin, Ed Decker, James White, the Tanners, etc.).
And since the Olympics in Salt Lake City as well as former-Governor Mitt Romney's run for the presidency, the "condemnation" (I would prefer "classification of Mormonism as a pseudo-Christian cult") has been reported everywhere - from Chris Matthews to Katie Couric to Time to the New York Times to the current debate at beliefnet.com between Dr. Al Mohler and Orson Scott Card. It's nearly everywhere Robert.
posted by , at
7/27/2007 11:18 AM
AJ, try as you will, you can't convince any of us here. Please return to your ex-gay ministries and do continue trying to help your socalled christian hetero adulterers instead. Your time here is wasted. What attracts you so much to a gay website anyway? None of us really believe in the nonsense you are peddling. All that wasted energy should be directed elsewhere where you're sorely needed.
posted by , at
7/27/2007 11:32 AM
Wayne, why do we have to endure these socalled christian rightwing sickos harrassing us by shoving their belief systems down our throats? They are a nuisance but then I suppose they have nothing better to do than come to a gay website to rant and proclaim the rapture. Seems like they are unhappy people if you ask me. How many of them are enjoying a heterosexual sex life I wonder, do they still masturbate perhaps to same-sex porn? Probably the only real rapture they'll ever get.
posted by , at
7/27/2007 11:43 AM
Just a quick fyi: I do not work for any "ex-gay" ministry. And just one of the many reasons I enjoy this site is the reason I enjoy other sites where I disagree with the majority of readers - it challenges me. Many of the commenters here bring up good points (others not so good). Anyone can sit back and rap back and forth with people they already agree with, which often times results in defeating straw-man after straw-man and engaging in ad hominem argumentation.
I would much rather discuss important issues that Mr. Besen and others raise with people that I may (and likely do) disagree with and work through any disagreements and see who is being consistent and rational and who is being incoherent and arbitrary.
Any when Robert have I "proclaimed the Rapture"?!?! And what is with that last post in general? Talk about your argumentation taking a dive. You're getting desperate sir! Breathe and try and get it together.
posted by , at
7/27/2007 11:55 AM
”My definition of an "unrepentant homosexual" is (surprise) one who refuses to repent of homosexuality.”
How does one “repent” of gender attraction?
posted by , at
7/27/2007 12:48 PM
Wayne, why do we have to endure these socalled christian rightwing sickos harrassing us by shoving their belief systems down our throats?
LOLOLOL, but seriously..
Sweet Robert, without them we wouldn't know just how truly right we are.
posted by , at
7/27/2007 12:58 PM
And one more AJ.
If same-gender attraction wasn't a sin, how would you feel about it?
posted by , at
7/27/2007 1:30 PM
The same way an idolater repents of being attracted to idols, the same way an adulterer repents of being attracted to another person's spouse, the same way a pedophile repents of being attracted to children, the same way one repents of being attracted (i.e., coveting) to the possessions of another.
ALL humans are born with a sin nature, with sinful desires, and with sinful attractions. I am, you are, Robert is, etc. And it may well feel perfectly "natural" for certain people to be homosexuals; it also feels perfectly "natural" for ALL of us to be tempted to do things that our Creator condemns as sin and states are immoral, unnatural, and wrong.
But it doesn't follow that our Creator wants us to remain that way. God commands us to repent. God promises He can and will set people who believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ free from their sinful nature, give them new desires, and help them withstand temptations. That's not to say they're guaranteed not to fall into sin at some point, but it is to say they won't dive in.
And I'm surprised Emproph that you would cheer Robert on in light of his most recent comments. You seem like an intellectually honest person, yet you don't feel it necessary to point out his self-refuting statements, straw-man arguments, and ad hominem reasoning? WOW! That says a lot.
posted by , at
7/27/2007 1:34 PM
Emproph, everything is created by God. All things are thereby defined by God. There is no neutral ground. There are no neutral facts. God has an unchanging character, and the ethical aspects of His unchanging character serve as absolute ethical norms for His creation. God has declared homosexuality to be a sin - a transgression of His Law. And He commands - He demands - homosexuality to be repented of. Had God not declared it sin, I would have NO ethical issues with it. Zero. None.
Now, whenever you or I object to anything, we are always assuming some standard or rule that the thing allegedly violates. For example, when you object to the commandments/ethics of the Christian faith, you are assuming some standard that Christianity supposedly violates. My question to you is how you justify the standard - which you have yet to explicitly reveal - that you are utilizing? What is your standard for ethics and reason, and how do you justify it?
posted by , at
7/27/2007 2:00 PM
AJ, yaddah yaddah yaddah. Prove that everything was created by your socalled god. You can't.
All this religious ranting about your beliefs, the creator said this, the creator said that...is clearly your rapture, your hungup on trying to impose your religious views on the rest of us. We don't need the preaching about your personal belief system, we're not interested. Its obvious your means to get off, assuming that you ever get off, alone or with others. What do you do when you get an erection, pray for help?
And what would be the cause of any erection you might have assuming you ever have one? Find a woman perhaps?
As Chris stated on another post, Jesus Christ was crucified by the support of fundamentalist religious loonies, the same ones we have in our own society today; he was judged because he consorted with prostitutes, beggars, thieves, gentiles and others, not once judging or condemning any of them. He never condemned or judged any gay people either, assuming people believe all that, not that I do.
Emproph, I do believe you've upset him. Notice how he assumes the air of superiority by saying that he thought you were an intellectually honest person. Who is he to make such statements about your intellectual capacity? What a pompous, arrogant,sad, sorry ass that is.
posted by , at
7/27/2007 2:37 PM
You're actually correct to some extent Robert. I probably can't prove to you God exists in light of your presupposition - here a seemingly naturalistic one. Your presuppositions won't allow you to examine without a naturalistic bias any evidence that I present for God's existence.
I could of course point out the absurdity of believing something created has no Creator - that it's similar to believing a painting didn't have a painter or that a building didn't have a builder. I could of course point out that one of the greatest proofs for the existence of God is the impossibility of the contrary. After all, without God it's impossible to really prove anything. Any naturalistic, atheistic worldview can very easily be demonstrated to be irrational and arbitrary. Such a worldview will not have the means to consistently provide the preconditions of - or even account for - such things as the laws of logic, morality, our experiences, etc.
We could get into all that. But given that your presuppositions apparently cannot allow for the contrary, you're probably right that such a discussion would be fruitless. But it's interesting to see who really is the close-minded, dogmatic, fundamentalist here (it's you, not me).
One question I have for you and Chris L.: On what basis do you accept that Jesus was a friend of sinners and social outcasts (as all His followers should be) and was crucified, yet reject His Resurrection, demands that people repent, His insistence on a literal, eternal, tormenting hell, etc.? How do you pick and choose what to believe about Jesus from the Gospel accounts in particular, as well as the eyewitness testimony of His followers?
And btw, Emproph didn't upset me at all. It just seemed quite unlike him, compared to his past comments on this blog and others, to apparently support your fallacious reasoning and quickly devolving form of argumentation. I was merely surprised a bit, but not upset in the slightest.
Furthermore, there was no comment made concerning Emproph's intellectual capacity. It was concerning his intellectual honesty. Once again Robert you may want to be more careful when writing. And if you don't know the difference between intellectual capacity and intellectual honesty, you way want to read a bit more.
posted by , at
7/27/2007 3:44 PM
"Had God not declared it sin, I would have NO ethical issues with it. Zero. None."
I can see now how you have zilch, zero, nada, nothing, no-how, and absolutely NO-ISSUES-WHAT-SO-EVER, when it comes to the issue of homosexuality.
I thank you for clarifying your position.
And so back to sin.
I'm sorry, I'm feeling extremely unsatisfied with that repentance answer. Can we try again please?
What I'm trying to ask is, how does one repent of their own gender attraction? How is it even possible?
For instance, imagine for a moment that I'm just too blind to see my own sin.
How would you then, describe to me, how you would you repent of your own heterosexuality, if that were a sin?
posted by , at
7/27/2007 4:06 PM
Emproph, I admit I'm confused by your question(s). I mean, if God revealed to His creation that heterosexuality violated His Law - a Law which flows from His character and nature - then of course I would be commanded to repent. Perhaps your question deals more with the nature of revelation itself? I'm not really sure.
We really don't need to deal with hypotheticals though. Jesus stated that lusting after a woman is a sin. That's a sin as a heterosexual man that I fully admit I struggle with when I see a beautiful woman. When it happens, I need to repent of that sin and ask for God's forgiveness based on Jesus' shed blood and sacrificial death for my sins.
posted by , at
7/27/2007 5:00 PM
Yup, nope, that doesn't answer my question again.
I CALL TROLL.
posted by , at
7/27/2007 5:02 PM
Well, there you have it then I guess. Please learn to ask questions in a more clear way next time sir.
But you still haven't answered my question. As I said, whenever you or I object to anything, we're always assuming some standard or rule that the thing allegedly violates. For example, when you object to the commandments/ethics of the Christian faith, you're assuming some standard that Christianity supposedly violates.
My question to you is how you justify the standard - which you have yet to explicitly reveal Emproph - which you're utilizing? What's your standard for ethics and reason, and how do you justify it?
posted by , at
7/27/2007 5:10 PM
at 7/27/2007 9:49 AM Robert, NYC, wrote: Notice how none of the mainstream religions condemn Mormonism, a sect that espouses polygamy, a practice that in fact is permitted in the bible? The state of Utah looks the other way even though it is supposedly illegal in that state.
posted by Notice how none of the mainstream religions condemn Mormonism, a sect that espouses polygamy, a practice that in fact is permitted in the bible? The state of Utah looks the other way even though it is supposedly illegal in that state".
You do not have your facts straight here. Polygamy became illegal among "Mormons" in 1890. If you are a polygamist the mormon church will excommunicate you. Hope Truth wins out will not do that to you for spreading ....ehhh your truths??
Marcus.
posted by MarcusLoewe, at
7/27/2007 6:22 PM
Hmmmmmmmmm, so jesus said lusting after a woman is a sin. Well now, that just about prohibits every straight man from ever approaching a woman for a relationship that almost always involves sex. When a straight man looks at a woman in that way, its about "sex". So I would deduce that a husband is prohibited from lusting after his wife too. What a dilemma for straight men that presents, all these double standards, tsk, tsk. So I suppose a straight man has to avert his gaze when a "beautiful" woman approaches because it might induce an erection, another sin no less and which often induces masturbation, another sin. What a screwed up belief system that is. Glad I'm not part of it.
posted by , at
7/28/2007 8:23 AM
AJ
Since you are posting on homosexuality, divorce and sin, now would be a good time to remind you that you sinned against me, bearing false witness against me, my partner, and millions of other GLBTQ people, and that you still need to repent of that sin.
Frankly, any post from you about the Bible or theology is pretty worthless as long as you insist that you are exempt from having to repent of your sin of bearing false witness.
Remember, Biblical Law states very explicitly that it is a sin to tell lies and to bear false witness against others, both of which you did on this board.
Please repent of your sin against me, my partner, and millions of other GLBTQ people.
posted by Friend of Jonathan, at
7/28/2007 11:51 AM
Friend of Jonathan, these are desperate people, they know they're losing the cultural was because the republicans are slowly losing ground and people now see through their bullshit, lies and hatred. They think they're superior because they believe in the bible. My question is, why is it do they bother coming to gay websites to preach the word when they should be preaching it to their own and get their own house in order before as you say, bearing false witness against us. Whatever happened to judge not and ye shall not be judged, or let he who is without sin, cast the first stone. None of them live up to it.
My gut feeling is that those who come here to agitate with their useless religious drivel are not really straight at all, but deeply closeted gay men with serious issues. Obviously, they've not yet learned to pray away the gay.
posted by , at
7/28/2007 12:48 PM
AJ, get a life, find a good woman and knock yourself out, or stay single and jack yourself off into oblivion thinking about some hot stud,and take your piece of fiction with you while you're at it.
posted by , at
7/28/2007 12:53 PM
Robert, you truly make me laugh sir. Now, you would almost certainly get booed off the stage by your own supporters after five minutes in a moderated debate with me, but boy do you try hard (and you are to be commended for that).
The simple reality is you have demonstrated yourself to be woefully unequipped TO EVEN BEGIN discussing theology generally or Christianity in particular - in fact I can't fathom you would even still post under Robert instead of anonymously. With all due respect, please leave this debate to the capable ones who actually understand the issues and can work through them without second grade sexual references and without making obvious historical and biblical errors. I think a new dodgeball game is starting in few. Perhaps you should catch that.
posted by , at
7/28/2007 7:02 PM
AJ
Your nasty and insulting remarks to Robert violate Christ's command to 'love your neighbor as yourself'.
I think you owe Robert an apology and heartfelt repentance. And I want to remind you that you have made similar degrading statements about me, for which I would like you to repent as well.
Please demonstrate that there is a real spiritual foundation behind your posts, by acknowledging your sins here, and then repenting of them.
posted by Friend of Jonathan, at
7/28/2007 8:11 PM
Well, I didn't find them nasty and insulting at all (but you're welcome to your opinion). In fact, I find them to be respectful and straight-forward and, most importantly, to honestly reflect the facts of the discussion as they stand. If you believe such things to be unloving Friend of Jonathan, then you clearly misunderstand Biblically-defined love. Consider briefly the example of Jesus:
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28).
"Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness [such as homosexuality]'" (Matthew 7: 22 - 23).
"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you" (Matthew 11: 21 - 22).
Jesus' language in Matthew 23 is some of the strongest in the entire Bible. Here He describes certain groups as "hypocrites," "serpents," "brood of vipers."
Nothing Jesus did or said here and elsewhere is unloving. He's speaking the truth in love, which can include directness and sarcasm at times. I could go on and on with examples. And that's why the most loving thing I can do is inform you Friend of Jonathan that homosexuality is a sin and therefore you and your partner are living in sin. If you don't agree, I welcome the debate.
posted by , at
7/28/2007 9:11 PM
AJ, whoever you claim to be, my real name is Robert, I'm not some phoney like you, you moron who can't even provide some semblance of a name. You're always assuming the air of moral superiority and putting down the rest of us because you think your book of tricks and all the hocus pocus it entails is the be all and end all of your sick, distorted view of the world. You're nothing more than a deeply closeted, sad, pathetic, unhappy, sexually unfulfilled, probably incapable man. We see through you for what you are, a bigot and a hypocrite, symbolic of the religious fanatic who cannot survive without that book of magic and make-believe you call the bible. Get a life, and like I said before, find yourself a woman, marry go forth and multiply as your master commanded, but I guess you can't because lust for a woman is a sin in which case, if thine own erection offend thee, cut it off.
posted by , at
7/28/2007 10:09 PM
HMMM...
AJ Foyt
AJ Styles
AJ Allmendinger
AJ Pierzynski
AJ Calloway
AJ Hawk
AJ Cronin
AJ Croce
Logic is a trick. Reasoning and justification are hocus pocus. And lust and love are equivalent. Welcome to Robert's world ladies and gentlemen. Good entertainment? Yes. Adequate criteria for formulating and defending a consistent, rational, and logical worldview? Of course not. Hence, Robert's inconsistent, irrational, and illogical worldview.
posted by , at
7/28/2007 10:40 PM
"if thine own erection offend thee, cut it off."
I would also add: If thine brain offend thee, pluck it out.
Of course that would assume that one is actually offended by their immoral bahavior, which for supremacists, is usually limited to treating others as equals and with rerspect. That to them, is a sin.
Supremacists are ego idolaters who "worship" their own pride and sense of superiority.
It takes a lot of defense mechanisms to convince yourself that hate is the same as love and then convince yourself that a God of infinite love actually had to come down to teach us how to treat others like garbage.
One thing you'll notice is that they are continually projecting their immorality onto others. Most of the things that come out of their mouths are self descriptive to a tee. AJ is no exception.
Their real religion is the anti-gay ageda, because it's what they practice religiously. Lying and demonizing LGBT persons until they can convince the public to make imprisoning and murdering us a legal imperative -- all in the name of Jesus of course.
They've deluded themselves into believing that their sin tself is Christianity. And it makes perfect sense, if their ego is God, truth is whatever THEY say it is, and thus so is morality (or immorality for that matter). Then they cherry-pick the Bible as an excuse to justify their flaming hypocrisy, hoping no one notices.
Ultimately what it comes down to is that they are incapable of understanding the difference between right and wrong, and believe this fact to be the source of their moral superiority.
It's really nothing more than the practice of mental illness. It's just too bad they have to disgrace Christianity while doing so.
posted by , at
7/29/2007 12:00 AM
"Well, I didn't find them nasty and insulting at all (but you're welcome to your opinion)."
I'm not surprized. I remember an AJ from beliefnet who kept getting suspended for remarks the ones you make, and he too saw nothing wrong with his hate speech.
However, the fact that you claim not see how evil it is to say the things you have said about my relationship, doesn't change anything. It only further damages the credibility of your claims about God.
"In fact, I find them to be respectful and straight-forward and, most importantly, to honestly reflect the facts of the discussion as they stand."
You declared that my relationship was not built on love - that is exremely disrespectful, AJ. Once again, and every time I see you post, I ask you to repent of your damning sin against me. I want to be able to forgive you, but, you really have to ask for it.
"If you believe such things to be unloving Friend of Jonathan, then you clearly misunderstand Biblically-defined love."
Nice reversal, but, no. No where does the Bible define love in a way to allow the verbal abuse, the insults, the slanders and lies you have spread.
The Bible contains many descriptions of love - not one includes verbally defecating on people's relationships, as you have done to me. Let's look at one and see if it allows you to post the hideous and offensive things you have written about me and to me.
1 Corinthians 13
"1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."
Well, your posts fail the love test, AJ. They are unkind, vicious actually. They delight in evil, and are outraged at the truth. You claims put people in danger, rather than protect them. Your posts are rude, and self-seeking, and attempt to steal from GLBTQ people hope and trust in God. There was no patience in your posts, only insults and lies.
Re: Matthew 7:22 - 23.
I think it very interesting that you quoted the following, inserted as if Scriptural your assumption, even though you completely dodged the point I made with the passage a few weeks ago.
The first problem, of course, is that once again, you've taken it out of its context.
Matthew 7:
"1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Note - Jesus did not say "such as homosexuality" which you included, falsely, within the quotes. In fact, the word your translation rendered 'lawlessness' and which the NIV translates as 'evildoers' -the KJV translates as 'ye that work iniquity' - and ininquity comes from the same root as inequality.
Is it not ironic, AJ, that you are arguing for a heresy that creates inequality, iniquity, and which all too frequently causes people to engage in lawlessness - murder, physical violence, libel and slander?
The reality, AJ, is that you are teaching something that bears evil fruit, something that causes inequality, iniquity, lawlessness. Matthew 7 15-23 applies not to homosexuality, but to teaching persecution as you are doing here.
Once again, please, for your own sake, repent of your sins against me and my partner, against GLBTQ people. Don't be a worker of iniquity, AJ.
posted by Friend of Jonathan, at
7/29/2007 12:04 AM
Guys, he's proved his point, an utter fool. Ignore him and his comments, we're merely enabling him by responding. We all know religious bigots are sick people and he's no exception. You have to feel sorry for them, they're unhappy, maladjusted, probably sexually inadequate people that not even their socalled creator can help them because they are so unlike him or it, whatever the case may be. Sad.
posted by , at
7/29/2007 9:09 AM
I agree with Robert, as i have said many times before. It's pointless to get into arguments with AJ, simply because HE DOESN'T CARE WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY.
ALL theology is opinion, not subject to any kind of reality check. A muslim does not recognize Jesus as anything more than one in a long line of prophets, but will tell you that HIS religion is the one to go with. ALL religion is a form of psychosis. Some of them are relatively benign (gotta love those Unitarians!) and some believe that the big G wants you to fly airplanes into buildings. All true believers believe their beliefs are true, by this simple definitions of faith:
"Faith is the evidence of things not seen." My fairy story is justified by my belief in it.
You can argue with AJ all you want, just as you can point out to Ted Haggard that he really isn't straight, and that he the perfect evidence that G does not give a flying fuck about homosex--not as much as AJ does.
But TH cares no more than AJ.
posted by , at
7/29/2007 12:12 PM
Emproph, you write of "right and wrong." On what basis do you decide what is right and what is wrong?
Friend of Jonathan, I can't speak to any other AJ other than myself. I can say I've never commented on beliefnet.com, although I'm familiar with the site and have read articles there. As for including anything falsely in quotes, did I not use brackets? You do know how citation works, right? And homosexuality is defined in 1 Timothy 1 as lawlessness. Therefore, you and your partner are practicing lawlessness. You and your partner are breaking God's law. And there will be consequences for that.
Ben adds a nice self-refuting statement to the mix. "ALL theology is opinion." Well, that's a comment concerning theology. Is that merely your opinion or is it a fact? As for not being subject to any reality check, well, what is your standard for such a check? Please enlighten me. And you clearly misunderstand faith, evidence, and reason - quite a feat indeed! To criticize the Christian "faith" as irrational is itself nothing more than to express a different religious faith. Yours is a faith which in one way or another adopts the ultimate authority and self-sufficiency of the human mind and "reasoning." And THAT is truly irrational "faith" indeed, evidenced perhaps most clearly in the sad experience and history of mankind in addition to the unresolved, rational tensions within autonomous science and philosophy. You can ignore me all you want Ben, but just know that I welcome a debate between our worldviews any time and will very quickly show yours to be inconsistent, irrational, and arbitrary.
posted by , at
7/29/2007 2:17 PM
"As for including anything falsely in quotes, did I not use brackets? You do know how citation works, right?"
I understand that commentary on citation belongs outside of the quote marks. Anything within the quotes is presented as the direct expressed statement of the person quoted. Essentially, AJ, you misrepresented yet another biblical text.
"And homosexuality is defined in 1 Timothy 1 as lawlessness."
No, it is not. There may be a passage that you interpret in that fashion, but interpretation is notoriously subjective. The word homosexual doesn't appear anywhere in 1 Timothy 1. Ironically, though, the statement 'the Law is good if one uses it properly' does appear, and the consequences of your false law condemning homosexuality is murder, brutality, injustice and inequality, abuse and persecution - none of which is good.
So you have misrepresented yet another passage of scripture.
"Therefore, you and your partner are practicing lawlessness. You and your partner are breaking God's law."
No, we are not. But you have just falsely accused us, and that is sin, AJ. You have just sinned against me again.
Please, repent. You won't have any credibility here talking about what you perceive to be sins in our lives, regarding things that have no impact on your own life, until you first demonstrate repentance for the hideous and depraved lies you tell about us.
The consequences of your heretical claim that homosexuality is sin are horrific AJ. The idea you are vomitting up onto our lives causes people to commit murder, you have argued from passages that demand death. The idea you are vomitting up onto our lives, AJ, inspires people to persecute and harass, discriminate and abuse other human beings - all of which, no matter what the reason, violates Christ's command.
And Jesus, who never said anything critical or condemning about homosexuality, was very clear about false teaching. He said that the test of any teaching lay in its consequences - good teaching bears good fruit, but evil fruit is proof that a teaching does not come from God.
What you teach only bears evil fruit, even within your own life, for it has caused you to sin against me repeatedly, and then reject any need on your part to repent of that sin.
Worse than that, though, by voicing your heretical belief, AJ, you are leading other people to sin. When they learn the truth, should they learn the truth, they too will cause to ask you to repent and beg their forgiveness for your sins against them.
I'll keep asking you to repent until you do so, AJ. You sinned against me, by bearing false witness, please repent.
posted by Friend of Jonathan, at
7/29/2007 4:10 PM
Friend of Jonathan, just an fyi. You're incorrect about the usage of square brackets. They can be used to enclose explanatory material within a quoted text. Also, if you want to debate 1 Timothy 1 or any other texts, I'm more than willing to do so. Just please openly say so before myself and the other readers. I want it in writing so you can't weasel out like before and escape to your world of Kramer logic.
posted by , at
7/29/2007 4:35 PM
AJ
Please repent of your myriad sins against me and my partner. After all, since you have lied about us, your claim about anything else, even something as mundane as quotes and brackets - has no credibility.
Repent, AJ.
Demonstrate that you actually live the faith you are using to bash and abuse people with, by repenting of your sins against me and my partner, and against GLBTQ people. Do it right, and repent for your sins against everyone here, without waiting for them to ask.
Live your faith, AJ, repent. Don't add to your burden with false accusations, wash yourself clean by repenting of your sins against people here.
posted by Friend of Jonathan, at
7/29/2007 4:42 PM
Friend of Jonathan, don't waste your energy, repentance is not at hand for AJ. Repressed people are often in denial about a lot of things, sexuality being one of them, we've seen so much of that in the evangelical movement, Haggard comes to mind among others like Livingstone, Vitter (supposedly straight), Allen for example. There was one other in Oklahoma I believe, can't recall his name who though married, was caught soliciting a cop for oral sex...all believers in scripture, yet not one of them apologized to the LGBT community either let alone repented. They're all pathological liars, cheats and hypocrites.
posted by , at
7/30/2007 10:10 AM
Lonnie Latham in Oklahoma-- don't you ever ready MY posts?
posted by , at
7/30/2007 11:18 AM
Ben, I do read your posts, but completely missed that one. Thanks for providing the name of the Oklahoma hypocrite. If my memory serves me well, wasn't Jim Bakker at one time caught with a young boy somewhere? I know he had an extra-marital affair with a woman at one time, Jessica Hahn I think it was.
posted by , at
7/30/2007 2:33 PM
there was something about some homosex, but i can't quite recall what it was. I rememebr thinking at the time that when the fundies want to get someone, they spread the gay rumor. JB had lots of money and a big network. Fallwell ended up getting it
posted by , at
7/30/2007 3:13 PM
Friend of Jonathan is my hero!
posted by Unknown, at
7/30/2007 3:21 PM
Ben, thanks so much, I knew I wasn't imagining it. What I do recall though is that it was quickly hushed up unlike the Hahn scandal.
Thanks also to Chris and Friend of Jonathan and Jonathan.
posted by , at
7/30/2007 3:31 PM
You're welcome, Robert.
Anytime there is a unified front against a troll, it's a good thing.
posted by Unknown, at
7/30/2007 4:28 PM
Thanks guys.
Lots of good ideas and thoughts here.
Several folk have kinda written off responding to or debating with AJ, and, in my opinion, I think we lose an opportunity when we do so.
Not to reach the AJ's of the world, I think most are beyond the reach of anyone, human or Divine. But for every AJ, there are hundreds of people not quite so comfortable hating others, and those folks can be reached.
Personally, I think pointing out the injury implicit in anti-gay rhetoric and theology, by asking for the AJ's and Phelp's to repent and apologize, has the potential to be very useful.
For decades, the conservative religionists have held the illusion of moral high ground, constantly yammering on about alleged sin in our lives. It is long past time to hold a mirror up to their claims, and point out the implicit sin in what they do to us and say to us, and ask them to actually live their faith, set an example, by repenting when they wrong us.
Failure to repent, on their part, reveals that spirituality and faith are not their true driving motive for their abuse of GLBTQ people, and drawing attention to the abusiveness of their claims and actions, highlights that they are engaged in something evil.
posted by Friend of Jonathan, at
7/30/2007 7:45 PM
Friend of Jonathan, I hear you and empathize, but I'm so worn out from his useless drivel. He's a sexually repressed individual, unhappy, incapable, probably asexual and just miserable. I dont' think any man or woman in their right mind would want to waste their time and energy on this sick, pathetic individual. His bible is his rapture, let him have his fantasy. He'll go to his grave a sad, unhappy, unfulfilled man, an empty shell. Not worth bothering with. He and his ilk have lost the socalled "moral" argument. We all know he's not going to win us over and he knows it. Don't let him bait you, he gets off on it. You're better than he is, rise above it.
posted by , at
7/30/2007 11:09 PM
Robert,
The good thing about AJ's repeated bearing of false witness against GLBTQ people in general, and people here specifically, is that you can rightfully focus on asking him to repent and ask for your forgiveness, and need not spend any more time on his other issues until he does so.
You, I, everyone here, are at least AJ's equal, and there is no reason why we should not hold him accountable, and require of him the basic human decency of apologizing and repenting, before addressing any other remark or statement he makes.
This will give him the option of either acknowledging his sins against us, repenting of them and asking for our forgiveness, or having his obfuscation and judgementalism constantly interrupted by very polite requests that he live his faith by repenting of his sins against us.
I'd like to see every homophobe who bashes GLBTQ people in public taken to task for their malicious claims, and held to repent for their sins against us and required to apologize to us, as publicly as they offend against us.
But, I understand your sense of burn-out, so, please do only what is genuine for you.
posted by Friend of Jonathan, at
7/30/2007 11:18 PM
Friend of Jonathan, thank you so much, I appreciate what you said, deeply. I'll try to hold on, but just know I support my loving brothers and sisters, always. We are going to win, come what may!
posted by , at
7/30/2007 11:49 PM
Friend of Jonathan, I don't think we can expect him to repent because he genuinely believes he has not sinned against us. His interpretation of the bible is absolute. He believes in talking animals, reptiles, that the world is only 6000 years old, angels sleeping with women and I assume having sexual relations (now that last one would be in conflict with lusting for women). The litany is endless. He'll never get to first base with us and he knows it. Living in his own fantasy world of make-believe. He's not going to repent because arrogance (another sin) gets in the way. Let him be.
posted by , at
7/31/2007 9:35 AM
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posted by , at
7/17/2008 2:18 AM
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9 AM -
9 games -
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absolute poker -
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acropolis casinos -
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all jackpots -
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atlantic lounge -
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cocoa casino -
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colosseum casino -
crazy vegas casino -
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crystal palace casino -
da vincis gold -
desert dollar -
diamond casino -
diamond club casino -
diamond club poker -
diamond deal casino -
dream poker -
ecard room -
el bingo -
english habour -
english habour poker -
english habour uk -
europa casino -
euro poker -
festive bingo -
first web casino -
flamingo club -
fortune affiliates -
fortune lounge -
fortune room -
galactic bingo -
gaming club -
gaming club poker -
gaming club uk -
gaming income -
geisha bingo -
giant vegas -
giga slot -
global player -
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golden palace -
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golden palace mobile -
golden palace poker -
golden tiger casino -
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gold gate casino -
gold nugget casino -
gran casino espana -
grand hotel casino -
grand online -
grand prix lotto -
gut shot -
hammers casino -
hampton casino -
havana club -
holdem poker -
home casino -
hotel casino network -
i net bet -
inter champs -
internet bingo -
isa bet -
island poker -
jackpot city -
jackpot factory -
jackpot joy -
jackpot palace -
jet bingo -
joyland casino -
juegos 65 -
ladies bingo -
las seters -
las vegas usa casino -
lucky emperor -
lucky nugget -
lucky nugget casino uk -
lucky nugget poker -
mahjong time -
mapau -
mapau bingo -
mapau de -
maple casino -
metro casino -
miami beach -
millionaire casino -
my bookie -
new york casino -
nine -
nine am -
nine games -
nine poker -
oasis casino -
online vegas -
orbital casino -
oyna 65 -
pacific poker -
paradise 8 -
paradise affiliates -
paradise eight -
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pharaohs casino -
phoenician casino -
platinum play -
play 4 free -
play 65 -
play and deal -
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poker share -
poker show -
poker time -
portofino casino -
prestige bingo -
prestige casino -
pure slots -
purple lounge -
pyramid casino -
refer back -
refer bingo -
revenue giants -
rewards parking -
river belle -
river belle poker -
rock my wallet -
royal card club -
royal dice -
royal plaza casino -
royal vegas -
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ruby bingo -
sandpiper casino -
seven sultans -
seven sultans poker -
showdown casino -
sia casino -
sierra star casino -
silver dollar -
silver dollar casino -
slot fever casino -
slot land -
slots -
slots 24 -
slots cr -
slots plus -
slots village -
speed bet -
stars and stripes bingo -
strike it lucky casino -
sunny diamonds -
sun palace casino -
sunset casino -
sun vegas -
super slots -
super slots bingo -
tcads -
this is vegas -
tiger gaming -
titan poker -
touch stone poker -
true earnings -
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usa casino -
vc casino -
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vegas 7 casino -
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vegas red -
vegas seven casino -
vegas slot casino -
vegas towers -
vegas villa -
vics bingo -
victor -
victor chandler casino -
video poker classic -
villento -
virtual city casino -
virtual city poker -
wild jack casino -
wild jack mobile -
wild jack poker -
winward casino -
you bingo -
yukon gold casino -
zodiac casino -
32 vegas -
3 diamonds casino -
400 affiliates -
49er casino -
50 stars casino -
888 -
888 casino -
9 AM -
9 games -
9 poker -
absolute poker -
ace club -
acf webmaster -
action gold -
action poker -
affiliate lounge -
all jackpots -
all slots -
all star affiliates -
amber coast casino -
apues tas -
atlantic lounge -
aus vegas -
bella vegas -
bet 19 -
bet 365 -
bet 365 poker -
bet bet -
bet casino -
bet com -
bet euro -
bet fred -
bet game day -
bet holdem -
bet max casino -
bet on games -
bet on races -
bet on usa -
bets son -
bet wwts -
big bettys bingo -
bingo 777 -
bingo bank roll -
bingo cabin -
bingo cafe -
bingo fantasy -
bingo for money -
bingo hall -
bingo knights -
bingo liner -
bingo palace -
bingo program -
bingo promoter -
bingo reward -
bingo royalty -
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black pool bingo -
black widow casino -
break away casino -
bright right -
cabaret club casino -
canadas best bingo -
capital bingo -
caribbean sun poker -
car sands -
cash wave -
casino 365 -
casino 770 -
casino controller -
casino domain -
casino euro -
casino france net -
casino king -
casino las vegas -
casino lucky dog -
casino onliner -
casino partouche -
casino pay check -
casino profit share -
casino room -
casino verano -
casino webcam -
challenge casino -
cherry casino -
cindys poker -
cirrus casino -
city club casino -
club player casino -
cocoa casino -
cool cat casino -
cote dazur palace -
crystal palace casino -
cs casino -
cyber sportsbook -
da vincis gold -
diamond deal casino -
diamond gal -
earn united -
ecard room -
el bingo -
empire poker -
enter casino -
euro grand -
euro poker -
fair deal sports -
fair poker -
fast win casino -
festive bingo -
first web casino -
five card charlie -
fortune junction -
galactic bingo -
gambling wages -
gaming income -
geisha bingo -
geisha lounge -
giant vegas -
giga slot -
gl casino -
global player -
go casino -
gold betting -
golden reef casino -
golden riviera casino -
golden riviera poker -
gold key casino -
good as gold casino -
gran casino espana -
grand aces -
grand banks casino -
grand bay -
grand bay poker -
grand casino royale -
grand riviera -
hampton casino -
holdem poker -
hotel casino network -
ibig casino -
i net bet -
inter champs -
internet bingo -
i play tournaments -
island poker -
jackpot factory -
jackpot joy -
jackpots in a flash -
jackpot wheel -
jet bingo -
juegos 65 -
jupiter club -
king neptunes casino -
king solomons -
kiwi bingo -
kiwi bingo uk -
kiwi casino -
kiwi casino poker -
lady dream -
lake palace -
las seters -
las vegas usa casino -
luck n roll casino -
mad bingo -
magic box casino -
magic oasis -
mahjong time -
merlins magic casino -
miami paradise casino -
miss bingo -
monaco gold casino -
mummys gold -
music hall casino -
my bookie -
nine -
nine am -
nine games -
nine poker -
noble poker -
nostalgia casinos -
oasis casino -
omni casino -
online vegas -
only bingo -
oyna 65 -
palace of chance -
paradise 8 -
paradise affiliates -
paradise eight -
paradise poker -
party bingo -
party casino -
party gammon -
party poker -
peach casino -
piggs casino -
piggs peak -
planet luck -
play 65 -
play and deal -
players vegas -
play united -
poker -
poker 333 -
poker affiliate -
poker cs -
poker in canada -
poker metro -
poke round -
poker room -
poker share -
portofino casino -
prestige poker -
pure slots -
purple lounge -
pyramid casino -
race track casino -
refer bingo -
refer spot -
reveneu giants -
rich webmaster -
river nile casino -
rock my wallet -
roxy palace -
roxy poker -
royal card club -
royal dice -
ruby bingo uk -
ruby fortune -
sail away casino -
sandpiper casino -
sands of the caribbean -
s casino -
sci fi casino -
shark casino -
sia casino -
sierra star casino -
slot fever casino -
slot land -
slots -
slots alley casino -
slots cr -
slots plus -
slots royale -
slots village -
spass kasino -
speed bet -
spin palace -
spin palace poker -
posted by , at
7/17/2008 2:18 AM
sports interaction -
star luck casino -
stars and stripes bingo -
sterling house casino -
sun palace casino -
sun poker -
swiss casino -
tcads -
the sands -
the six shooter -
the star casino -
this is vegas -
tiger gaming -
tiki bingo -
top card casino -
top line bingo -
touch stone poker -
trident lounge -
trident poker -
triple win -
true earnings -
twin aces casino -
uk casino club -
ultimate bet -
vc casino -
vc poker -
vegas break casino -
vegas casino online -
vegas experts -
vegas lucky -
vegas magic -
vegas splendido -
vegas usa -
vics bingo -
victor -
video poker classic -
vip -
vip casinos -
vip horses -
vip poker -
vip profits -
vip soccer -
vip sports -
wager junction -
wager profits -
wild jack casino -
wild jack mobile -
wild jack poker -
windows casino -
winward casino -
wssb casino -
wssb sport -
24h poker -
24kt gold casino -
32 vegas -
3 diamond casino -
49er casino -
50 stars casino -
777 dragon -
7 sultans -
7 sultans poker -
888 -
888 casino -
ace club -
aces high -
acropolis casinos -
all poker casino -
all star affiliates -
amber coast casino -
aposte -
arthurian casino -
aspinalls online casino -
aztec riches casino -
aztec riches poker -
bet euro -
bet game day -
bet on games -
bet on races -
bingo day -
bingo knights -
blackjack ballroom -
black pool bingo -
black widow casino -
break away casino -
cabaret club casino -
cameo casino -
can bet -
canbet casino -
canbet poker -
canbet sports -
captain cooks casino -
captain cooks poker -
caribbean gold -
caribbean sun poker -
carnival casino -
car sands -
cash wave -
casino blasters -
casino bleu blanc rouge -
casino classic -
casino coins -
casino del rio -
casino fortune -
casino fortune uk -
casino france net -
casino king -
casino kingdom -
casino las vegas -
casino lucky dog -
casino mb -
casino onliner -
casino partners -
casino pays -
casino profit share -
casino rewards -
casino tropez -
casino us -
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posted by , at
7/17/2008 2:18 AM
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nine -
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noble poker -
nostalgia casinos -
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omni casino -
online vegas -
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slots royale -
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spass kasino -
speed bet -
spin palace -
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sterling house casino -
sun poker -
swiss casino -
tcads -
the sands -
the six shooter -
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top line bingo -
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posted by , at
7/17/2008 2:18 AM
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first web casino -
five card charlie -
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fortune affiliates -
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gran casino royale -
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grand hotel casino -
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grand prix lotto -
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grand slots -
gut shot -
hammers casino -
hampton casino -
havana club -
holdem poker -
home casino -
hotel casino network -
hype gaming -
hype partners -
ibig casino -
imperial casino -
i net bet -
inter champs -
internet bingo -
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isa bet -
island poker -
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jet bingo -
joyland casino -
juegos 65 -
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king neptunes casino -
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ladies bingo -
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mad bingo -
magic box casino -
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maple casino -
merlins magic casino -
metro casino -
miami beach -
miami paradise casino -
millionaire casino -
miss bingo -
monaco gold casino -
mummys gold -
music hall casino -
my bookie -
new york casino -
nine -
nine am -
nine games -
nine poker -
noble poker -
nostalgia casinos -
oasis casino -
omni casino -
online casino -
online vegas -
only bingo -
orbital casino -
oyna 65 -
pacific poker -
palace of chance -
paradise 8 -
paradise affiliates -
paradise eight -
paradise poker -
party bingo -
party casino -
party gammon -
party poker -
peach casino -
pharaohs casino -
phoenician casino -
piggs casino -
piggs peak -
planet luck -
platinum play -
platinum slots -
play 4 free -
play 65 -
play and deal -
players club casino -
players vegas -
playgate casino -
playgate poker -
play united -
poker -
poker 333 -
poker affiliate -
poker cs -
poker forum challenge -
poker in canada -
poker metro -
poker ocean -
poke round -
poker rewards -
poker room -
poker room la -
poker share -
poker show -
poker time -
portofino casino -
prestige bingo -
prestige casino -
prestige poker -
pure platinum poker -
pure slots -
purple lounge -
pyramid casino -
race track casino -
refer back -
refer bingo -
refer spot -
revenue giants -
rewards parking -
rich webmaster -
river belle -
river belle poker -
river nile casino -
rock my wallet -
roxy palace -
roxy poker -
royal card club -
royal dice -
royal plaza casino -
royal vegas -
royal vegas poker -
ruby bingo -
ruby bingo uk -
ruby fortune -
sail away casino -
sandpiper casino -
sands of the caribbean -
s casino -
sci fi casino -
seven sultans -
seven sultans poker -
shark casino -
showdown casino -
sia casino -
sierra star casino -
silver dollar -
silver dollar casino -
slot fever casino -
slot land -
slots -
slots 24 -
slots alley casino -
slots cr -
slots plus -
slots royale -
slots village -
social paradise -
spass kasino -
speed bet -
spin palace -
spin palace poker -
sports interaction -
star luck casino -
stars and stripes bingo -
sterling house casino -
strike it lucky casino -
sunny diamonds -
sun palace casino -
sun poker -
sunset casino -
sun vegas -
super slots -
super slots bingo -
swiss casino -
tcads -
the sands -
the six shooter -
the star casino -
this is vegas -
tiger gaming -
tiki bingo -
titan poker -
top card casino -
top line bingo -
touch stone poker -
trident lounge -
trident poker -
triple win -
true earnings -
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uk casino club -
ultimate bet -
united partner program -
usa casino -
vc casino -
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vegas 7 casino -
vegas affiliates -
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vegas partner lounge -
vegas seven casino -
vegas slot casino -
vegas splendido -
vegas towers -
vegas usa -
vegas villa -
vics bingo -
victor -
victor chandler casino -
video poker grand -
villento -
vip -
vip casinos -
vip horses -
vip poker -
vip profits -
vip soccer -
vip sports -
virtual city casino -
virtual city poker -
wager junction -
wager profits -
wild jack casino -
wild jack mobile -
wild jack poker -
windows casino -
winward casino -
wssb casino -
wssb sport -
you bingo -
yukon gold casino -
zodiac casino -
24h poker -
24kt gold casino -
32 red -
32 red affiliates -
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32 vegas -
3 diamonds casino -
400 affiliates -
49er casino -
50 stars casino -
777 dragon -
7 sultans -
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888 -
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absolute poker -
ace club -
aces high -
acropolis casinos -
all poker casino -
all star affiliates -
amber coast casino -
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arthurian casino -
aspinalls online casino -
atlantic lounge -
aztec riches casino -
aztec riches poker -
bella vegas -
bet 19 -
bet 365 -
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bet on games -
bet on races -
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caribbean gold -
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carnival casino -
car sands -
cash wave -
casino 365 -
casino blasters -
casino bleu blanc rouge -
casino classic -
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casino del rio -
casino elegance -
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casino france net -
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casino pay check -
casino pays -
casino profit share -
casino rewards -
casino room -
casino treasure -
casino tropez -
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cd poker -
celeb poker -
centre bet -
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challenge casino -
cindys poker -
cinema casino -
cirrus casino -
city club casino -
club dice casino -
club dice poker -
club euro casino -
club player casino -
club uk casino -
club usa casino -
cocoa casino -
college poker championship -
colosseum casino -
cool cat casino -
cote dazur palace -
crazy vegas casino -
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crystal palace casino -
cs casino -
cyber sportsbook -
dash casino -
da vincis gold -
desert dollar -
deutsches grand monaco -
diamond casino -
diamond club casino -
diamond club poker -
diamond deal casino -
diamond gal -
dream poker -
earn united -
ecard room -
empire poker -
english habour -
english habour poker -
english habour uk -
enter casino -
euro grand -
europa casino -
euro poker -
everest poker -
fair deal sports -
fair poker -
fast win casino -
festive bingo -
five card charlie -
flamingo club -
fortune affiliates -
fortune junction -
fortune lounge -
fortune room -
g3 partner -
gambling federation -
gambling wages -
gaming club -
gaming club poker -
gaming club uk -
geisha lounge -
get 21 -
giga slot -
gl casino -
global player -
go casino -
gold betting -
golden casino -
golden palace -
golden palace bingo -
golden palace mobile -
golden palace poker -
golden reef casino -
golden riviera casino -
golden riviera poker -
golden tiger casino -
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gold gate casino -
gold key casino -
gold nugget casino -
good as gold casino -
grand aces -
grand banks casino -
grand bay -
grand bay poker -
grand casino royale -
grand hotel casino -
grand monaco -
grand monaco casino -
grand online -
grand prix lotto -
grand riviera -
grand slots -
gut shot -
hammers casino -
havana club -
holdem poker -
home casino -
hype gaming -
hype partners -
ibig casino -
imperial casino -
i net bet -
inter champs -
inter tops -
i play tournaments -
isa bet -
island poker -
jackpot city -
jackpot palace -
jackpots in a flash -
jackpot wheel -
joyland casino -
jupiter club -
king netpunes casino -
king solomons -
kiwi bingo -
kiwi bingo uk -
kiwi casino -
kiwi casino poker -
ladies bingo -
lady dream -
lake palace -
las seters -
las vegas usa casino -
luck n roll casino -
lucky emperor -
lucky nugget -
lucky nugget casino -
lucky nugget poker -
mad bingo -
magic box casino -
magic oasis -
mapau -
mapau bingo -
mapau de -
maple casino -
merlins magic casino -
metro casino -
miami beach -
miami paradise casino -
millionaire casino -
miss bingo -
monaco gold casino -
mummys gold -
music hall casino -
new york casino -
noble poker -
nostalgia casinos -
omni casino -
online casino -
online vegas -
only bingo -
orbital casino -
pacific poker -
palace of chance -
paradise 8 -
paradise eight -
party bingo -
party casino -
party gammon -
party poker -
peach casino -
pharaohs casino -
phoenician casino -
piggs casino -
piggs peak -
planet luck -
platinum play -
platinum slots -
play 4 free -
play and deal -
players club casino -
players vegas -
playgate casino -
playgate poker -
play united -
poker 333 -
poker affiliate -
poker forum challenge -
poker metro -
poker ocean -
poke round -
poker rewards -
poker room -
poker room la -
poker show -
poker time -
prestige bingo -
prestige casino -
prestige poker -
pure platinum poker -
pure slots -
purple lounge -
pyramid casino -
race track casino -
refer back -
refer spot -
rewards parking -
rich webmaster -
river belle -
river belle poker -
river nile casino -
rock my wallet -
roxy palace -
roxy poker -
royal plaza casino -
royal vegas -
royal vegas poker -
ruby bingo -
ruby bingo uk -
ruby fortune -
sail away casino -
sands of the caribbean -
s casino -
sci fi casino -
seven sultans -
seven sultans poker -
shark casino -
showdown casino -
sia casino -
silver dollar -
silver dollar casino -
slot fever casino -
slot land -
slots -
slots 24 -
slots alley casino -
slots cr -
slots plus -
slots royale -
social paradise -
spass kasino -
spin palace -
spin palace poker -
sports interaction -
star luck casino -
sterling house casino -
strike it lucky casino -
sunny diamonds -
sun palace casino -
sun poker -
sunset casino -
sun vegas -
super slots -
super slots bingo -
swiss casino -
the sands -
the six shooter -
the star casino -
this is vegas -
tiki bingo -
titan poker -
top card casino -
top line bingo -
touch stone poker -
trident lounge -
trident poker -
triple win -
true earnings -
twin aces casino -
uk casino club -
united partner program -
usa casino -
vc casino -
vc poker -
vegas 7 casino -
vegas affiliates -
vegas break casino -
vegas casino online -
vegas country casino -
vegas joker casino -
vegas lucky -
vegas magic -
vegas palms -
vegas partner -
vegas partner lounge -
posted by , at
7/17/2008 2:19 AM
vegas red -
vegas seven casino -
vegas slot casino -
vegas splendido -
vegas towers -
vegas usa -
vegas villa -
victior chandler casino -
victor -
video poker classic -
video poker grand -
villento -
vip -
vip casinos -
vip horses -
vip poker -
vip profits -
vip soccer -
vip sports -
virtual city casino -
virtual city poker -
wager junction -
wager profits -
windows casino -
wssb casino -
wssb sport -
you bingo -
yukon gold casino -
zodiac casino -
24h poker -
24kt gold casino -
32 red -
32 red affiliates -
32 red poker -
32 vegas -
3 diamonds casino -
400 affiliates -
49er casino -
50 stars casino -
777 dragon -
7 sultans -
7 sultans poker -
888 -
888 casino -
9 AM -
9 games -
9 poker -
absolute poker -
ace club -
aces high -
acf webmaster -
acropolis casinos -
action gold -
action poker -
affiliate lounge -
all jackpots -
all poker casino -
all slots -
amber coast casino -
aposte -
apues tas -
arthurian casino -
aspinalls online casino -
atlantic lounge -
aus vegas -
aztec riches casino -
aztec riches poker -
bet 365 -
bet 365 poker -
bet com -
bet direct casino -
bet direct poker -
bet fred -
bet max casino -
bet on usa -
bets son -
big bettys bingo -
bingo bank roll -
bingo cabin -
bingo cafe -
bingo day -
bingo for money -
bingo hall -
bingo knights -
bingo liner -
bingo palace -
bingo program -
bingo promoter -
bingo reward -
bingo royalty -
bingos -
bingos uk -
blackjack ballroom -
black widow casino -
bright right -
cameo casino -
canadas best bingo -
can bet -
canbet casino -
canbet poker -
canbet sports -
capital bingo -
captain cooks casino -
captain cooks poker -
caribbean gold -
caribbean sun poker -
carnival casino -
car sands -
casino 365 -
casino 770 -
casino blasters -
casino bleu blanc rouge -
casino classic -
casino coins -
casino controller -
casino del rio -
casino domain -
casino elegance -
casino euro -
casino fantasy -
casino fortune -
casino fortune uk -
casino france net -
casino glamour -
casino king -
casino kingdom -
casino las vegas -
casino lux -
casino mb -
casino onliner -
casino partners -
casino partouche -
casino pays -
casino profit share -
casino rewards -
casino room -
casino treasure -
casino tropez -
casino us -
casino webcam -
cd casino -
cd poker -
celeb poker -
centre bet -
centre bet affiliates -
centre bet poker -
challenge casino -
cherry casino -
cindys poker -
cinema casino -
cirrus casino -
club dice casino -
club dice poker -
club euro casino -
club player casino -
club uk casino -
club usa casino -
cocoa casino -
college poker championship -
colosseum casino -
cool cat casino -
cote dazur palace -
crazy vegas casino -
crazy vegas poker -
crystal palace casino -
cs casino -
dash casino -
da vincis gold -
desert dollar -
deutsches grand monaco -
diamond casino -
diamond club casino -
diamond club poker -
diamond deal casino -
dream poker -
ecard room -
el bingo -
empire poker -
english habour -
english habour poker -
english habour uk -
enter casino -
euro grand -
europa casino -
euro poker -
everest poker -
fair poker -
festive bingo -
first web casino -
flamingo club -
fortune affiliates -
fortune lounge -
fortune room -
g3 partner -
galactic bingo -
gambling federation -
gambling wages -
gaming club -
gaming club poker -
gaming club uk -
gaming income -
geisha bingo -
get 21 -
giant vegas -
giga slot -
global player -
golden casino -
golden palace -
golden palace bingo -
golden palace mobile -
golden palace poker -
golden reef casino -
golden riviera casino -
golden riviera poker -
golden tiger casino -
golden tiger casino jp -
golden tiger poker -
gold gate casino -
gold key casino -
gold nugget casino -
gran casino espana -
grand banks casino -
grand hotel casino -
grand monaco -
grand monaco casino -
grand online -
grand prix lotto -
grand slots -
gut shot -
hammers casino -
hampton casino -
havana club -
holdem poker -
home casino -
hotel casino network -
hype gaming -
hype partners -
ibig casino -
imperial casino -
i net bet -
inter champs -
internet bingo -
inter tops -
isa bet -
island poker -
jackpot city -
jackpot factory -
jackpot joy -
jackpot palace -
jet bingo -
joyland casino -
juegos 65 -
ladies bingo -
las seters -
las vegas usa casino -
luck n roll casino -
lucky emperor -
lucky nugget -
lucky nugget casino -
lucky nugget poker -
mad bingo -
magic box casino -
magic oasis -
mahjong time -
mapau -
mapau bingo -
mapau de -
maple casino -
metro casino -
miami beach -
miami paradise casino -
millionaire casino -
miss bingo -
monaco gold casino -
music hall casino -
my bookie -
new york casino -
nine -
nine am -
nine games -
nine poker -
noble poker -
nostalgia casinos -
oasis casino -
omni casino -
online casino -
orbital casino -
oyna 65 -
pacific poker -
palace of chance -
paradise 8 -
paradise affiliates -
paradise eight -
paradise poker -
party bingo -
party casino -
party gammon -
party poker -
peach casino -
pharaohs casino -
phoenician casino -
planet luck -
platinum play -
platinum slots -
play 4 free -
play 65 -
play and deal -
players club casino -
playgate casino -
playgate poker -
poker -
poker affiliate -
poker cs -
poker forum challenge -
poker in canada -
poker metro -
poker ocean -
poke round -
poker rewards -
poker room -
poker room la -
poker share -
poker show -
poker time -
portofino casino -
presitge poker -
prestige bingo -
prestige casino -
pure platinum poker -
pure slots -
purple lounge -
pyramid casino -
refer back -
refer bingo -
revenue giants -
rewards parking -
rich webmaster -
river belle -
river belle poker -
river nile casino -
rock my wallet -
royal card club -
royal dice -
royal plaza casino -
royal vegas -
royal vegas poker -
ruby bingo -
ruby bingo uk -
sandpiper casino -
sands of the caribbean -
s casino -
seven sultans -
seven sultans poker -
showdown casino -
sia casino -
sierra star casino -
silver dollar -
silver dollar casino -
slot fever casino -
slot land -
slots -
slots 24 -
slots alley casino -
slots cr -
slots plus -
slots royale -
slots village -
social paradise -
spass kasino -
speed bet -
sports interaction -
star luck casino -
stars and stripes bingo -
sterling house casino -
strike it lucky casino -
sunny diamonds -
sun palace casino -
sun poker -
sunset casino -
sun vegas -
super slots -
super slots bingo -
swiss casino -
tcads -
the sands -
this is vegas -
tiger gaming -
titan poker -
touch stone poker -
true earnings -
twin aces casino -
uk casino club -
ultimate bet -
united partner program -
usa casino -
vc casino -
vc poker -
vegas 7 casino -
vegas affiliates -
vegas casino online -
vegas country casino -
vegas experts -
vegas joker casino -
vegas lucky -
vegas magic -
vegas palms -
vegas partner -
vegas partner lounge -
vegas red -
vegas seven casino -
vegas slot casino -
vegas towers -
vegas villa -
vics bingo -
victor -
victor chandler casino -
video poker classic -
video poker grand -
villento -
virtual city casino -
virtual city poker -
wild jack casino -
wild jack mobile -
wild jack poker -
windows casino -
winward casino -
you bingo -
yukon gold casino -
zodiac casino -
24h poker -
24kt gold casino -
32 red -
32 red affiliates -
32 red poker -
400 affiliates -
7 sultans -
7 sultans poker -
9 AM -
9 games -
9 poker -
absolute poker -
aces high -
acf webmaster -
acropolis casinos -
action gold -
action poker -
affiliate lounge -
all jackpots -
all slots -
all star affiliates -
apues tas -
aspinalls online casino -
atlantic lounge -
aus vegas -
aztec riches casino -
aztec riches poker -
bella vegas -
bet 19 -
bet 365 -
bet 365 poker -
bet bet -
bet casino -
bet com -
bet direct casino -
bet direct poker -
bet euro -
bet fred -
bet game day -
bet holdem -
bet max casino -
bet on games -
bet on races -
bet on usa -
bets son -
bet wwts -
big bettys bingo -
bingo 777 -
bingo bank roll -
bingo cabin -
bingo cafe -
bingo fantasy -
bingo for money -
bingo hall -
bingo liner -
bingo palace -
bingo program -
bingo promoter -
bingo reward -
bingo royalty -
bingos -
bingos uk -
blackjack ballroom -
black pool bingo -
break away casino -
bright right -
cabaret club casino -
canadas best bingo -
canbet -
canbet casino -
canbet poker -
canbet sports -
capital bingo -
captain cooks casino -
captain cooks poker -
cash wave -
casino 365 -
casino 770 -
casino blasters -
casino classic -
casino controller -
casino domain -
casino elegance -
casino euro -
casino fantasy -
casino glamour -
casino kingdom -
casino lucky dog -
casino lux -
casino partouche -
casino pay check -
casino rewards -
casino room -
casino treasure -
casino verano -
casino webcam -
celeb poker -
centre bet -
centre bet affiliates -
centre bet poker -
cherry casino -
cindys poker -
city club casino -
club euro casino -
club uk casino -
club usa casino -
cocoa casino -
college poker championship -
crystal palace casino -
cyber sportsbook -
dash casino -
da vincis gold -
desert dollar -
deutsches grand monaco -
diamond casino -
diamond deal casino -
diamond gal -
dream poker -
earn united -
ecard room -
el bingo -
euro poker -
everest poker -
fair deal sports -
fast win casino -
festive bingo -
first web casino -
five card charlie -
flamingo club -
fortune affiliates -
fortune junction -
fortune lounge -
fortune room -
g3 partner -
galactic bingo -
gambling federation -
gaming club -
gaming club poker -
gaming club uk -
gaming income -
geisha bingo -
geisha lounge -
get 21 -
giant vegas -
giga slot -
gl casino -
global player -
go casino -
gold betting -
golden casino -
golden palace -
golden palace bingo -
golden palace mobile -
golden palace poker -
golden tiger casino -
golden tiger casino jp -
golden tiger poker -
gold nugget casino -
good as gold casino -
gran casino espana -
grand aces -
grand bay -
grand bay poker -
grand casino royale -
grand monaco -
grand monaco casino -
grand online -
grand prix lotto -
grand riviera -
grand slots -
gut shot -
hampton casino -
havana club -
holdem poker -
home casino -
hotel casino network -
hype gaming -
hype partners -
imperial casino -
i net bet -
inter champs -
internet bingo -
inter tops -
i play tournaments -
isa bet -
island poker -
jackpot city -
jackpot factory -
jackpot joy -
jackpot palace -
jackpots in a flash -
jackpot wheel -
jet bingo -
juegos 65 -
jupiter club -
king neptunes casino -
king solomons -
kiwi bingo -
kiwi bingo uk -
kiwi casino -
kiwi casino poker -
ladies bingo -
lady dream -
lake palace -
las seters -
las vegas usa casino -
lucky emperor -
lucky nugget -
lucky nugget casino uk -
lucky nugget poker -
mahjong time -
merlins magic casino -
metro casino -
mummys gold -
my bookie -
nine -
nine am -
nine games -
nine poker -
oasis casino -
online casino -
online vegas -
only bingo -
orbital casino -
oyna 65 -
pacific poker -
paradise 8 -
paradise affiliates -
paradise eight -
paradise poker -
pharaohs casino -
phoenician casino -
piggs casino -
piggs peak -
platinum play -
platinum slots -
play 4 free -
play 65 -
play and deal -
players club casino -
players vegas -
play united -
poker -
poker 333 -
poker affiliate -
poker cs -
poker forum challenge -
poker in canada -
poker rewards -
poker room -
poker share -
poker time -
portofino casino -
pure platinum poker -
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