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Wayne Besen
PO Box 25491
Brooklyn, NY 11202
A Virginia-based organization that hosts weekend retreats aimed at helping gay men reduce unwanted same-sex attractions published a survey this month touting the effectiveness of its program in "changing" sexual orientation.
But critics dismissed the survey as absurd and scientifically naive and even some in the "ex-gay" movement question the group's claims.
The report, published by the group People Can Change on Feb. 5, surveyed individuals who participated in the organization's weekend retreats, which are called "Journey Into Manhood" and are available only to gay men. People Can Change argues that its program is effective in changing sexual orientation despite criticism from psychologists and other skeptics.
As a gay man, I have really enjoyed the journey into manhood that many men (gay and heterosexual) experience. For me, it was about growing up; putting away childish things. It was about becoming a self-sufficient businessman, and learning to be a true friend to those who are my friends, as well as looking at my mom and dad and realizing what a great job they did after all.
It was about losing some old illusions and accepting some persistent facts, too. It involved growing out of the "college kid" persona and finding my place in this topsy-turvy world in a responsible, gentlemanly way, reaching for higher experiences and finally seeing through the superficial luster of the more common cultural lures. It was about learning the wisdom of manners, etiquette and kindness, those traits which truly make a man a man.
The group being discussed here could offer a wonderul service, but they make a tragic mistake in thinking that embracing manhood results in a gay person becoming heterosexual. Perhaps they are like the more hardcore bigots who believe, wrongfully so, that being gay is about quickies and casual sexual expression. Maybe they have simply never seen beyond the surface of our community, or maybe they just don't care either way.
This group is composed of soft-peddlers, but don't fail to be vigilant...their core belief, that being gay is somehow the result of some masculine deficiency, is as bigoted as one can get. But for me, again, the process of journeying into manhood was a wonderful one whose rewards continue to this very day. Certainly no one, especially not a bigoted ex-gay group, can take that away from me or from anyone else in our community who chooses to reach deep down within themselves and realize that yes, we are, indeed, some of the truest of men.
posted by Anonymous, at
2/22/2008 12:41 PM
Wow Chris. Impressive, insightful, and honest. Thank you
posted by Anonymous, at
2/22/2008 4:03 PM
“What does it mean? You had a three-quarter erection before the camp and now you have half an erection?”
Oh my, I am still chuckling after that line. But seriously, it's a valid question even though it's funny. I want an answer.
posted by Anonymous, at
2/22/2008 11:19 PM
Nice comments Chris!!!!!! Thank you!
And Wayne, I continue to weep for the one I cared for so much who I believe I lost to this type of group in Sobe who teach that we GLBT people are somehow unrighteous and unworthy to be around.
Know you are kept in my prayers, you're a valiant hero to me... dal
posted by Unknown, at
2/22/2008 11:35 PM
Chris L., I came here to respond to this article and found that you had already said EXACTLY what I wanted to; and very well I might add.
I would like to add something more to this discussion. As much as we bitch and moan about all of these "ex-gay" groups and what they are doing, we MUST realize that they are filling a need. They are only able to operate because people are unhappy and they (wrongly) blame their homosexuality for their unhappiness. I realize that the people who offer the "ex-gay" services are the very people who work the hardest to make sure that gay people are unhappy; but that's beside the point.
We in the gay community need to have something to offer these desperate people. We need to be able to show them that their sexual orientation was not responsible for the poor life choices that they made which made them unhappy (ie promiscuity, drug abuse etc) We also need to be less judgemental of gay people of faith and let them know that they can be gay and Christian (I am). In fact they can be gay and have the same moral code as they would if they were straight (or that they would if they were pretending to be straight like so called "ex-gays" do).
Additionally, we shouldn't completely poo poo all men's retreats. There are some retreats that actually DO help men (straight and gay) to become more comfortable with their manhood and their sexuality (gay or straight) and some of them are actually quite gay supportive.
I think the Journey Into Manhood retreat is disgusting. It is taking a concept with the potential to do good (teaching men to embrace their nature and be proud of their manhood in what ever form it is expressed) and nefariously turning it into a branch of the "ex-gay" industry.
I love Wayne and I fully support Truth Wins Out but I think we have to do more than just pointing out the scam of the ex-gay snake oil salesmen. People have heard all of the facts over and over and they continue to go into ex-gay "therapy". WHY IS THAT? Because, no matter how crazy these "ex-gay" people are painted to be they are RELATING to and offering answers(bogus as they may be) to people who are terribly unhappy and conflicted about their sexuality AND WE ARE NOT.
If we really want to shut down the "ex-gay" industry and rescue these souls we have to at least address what's driving them there in the first place and offer them alternatives. We have to refrain from questioning or mocking their faith. We have to work with them from where they are, not where we want them to be. Nothing will send them running to Love Won Out like starting the conversation with, "You're a fool to try to be a part of a religion that hates you!" You can't fight ignorance with more ignorance
Sadly, I've not seen that we in the community have offered them much support or options to address their concerns and that's why the next Love Won Out convention and the Next Journey to Manhood retreat will be sell outs.
I think the socalled "therapists" themselves who believe they can change a gay person's orientation perhaps need therapy themselves. I suspect many of them too are unhappy about a lot of things and in many cases, gay themselves but in deep denial. Without any scientific evidence to support their claims of success, these organizations and their operators will remain what they are, delusional and in dire need of help.
posted by Anonymous, at
2/23/2008 7:46 AM
There *is* such a support organization called Manifest Love, started by David Nimmons who wrote the book The Soul Beneath the Skin. I recommend this book for all gay men and especially for those who may feel that we're not quite as 'good' as other groups. Not only are we 'as good as', but in some/many ways we're even better!! You can read more about the book on amazon.com or go this website http://www.manifestlove.org/ Gary (NJ)
posted by Anonymous, at
2/23/2008 10:43 AM
Most of the ex-gay therapists I have seen do appear to be closeted homosexuals.
Indeed, Dr. Joseph Nicolosi looks like he has AIDS. Now, I'm not equating AIDS with gay people - just that someone like Nicolosi is likely on the down low and thus being unsafe. Look at his face. He is an ill man and suffering from severe wasting - which has coincided with his angry and unpredictable behavior in recent years.
These therapists are in need of serious help, themselves.
Maybe someone should suggest to those running this latest "change the gays" incantation that part of embracing manhood also involves acknowledging that the cute religious fables that we were all taught as children might not be, ummmmm, actually true? Just who is holding onto childish things here?
It's amazing how "defensive hubris" is so tellingly and consistently part of the personalities of those who believe that there's some deity in the sky who becomes pissed off when a gay guy falls in love with another gay guy. Uh...... R--i--g--h--t. (Yes, I'm mocking you. If I believed something so absurd, it would be my privilege as it is yours, but I think I'd be a little more deferential about it, if you know what I mean.)
NOTICE to gays caught up in this sadness: I exhort you: WAKE UP and step boldly forward! There's NOTHING wrong with you! 5-10% of the male human population turns out gay and has done so since the beginning of recorded history, and you're one of 'em! And it's all fine, no matter what that 4,000 year old book says. THAT BOOK IS WRONG and you need to face THAT fact as a man! Life isn't always a rose garden, but GO, GO and make a happy life, find a partner who you can love, and live with confidence and respect!
Gay men are TRULY some of the most beautiful of all creation!!!!!!! WHY ARE YOU LETTING SUCH LOWLY PEOPLE TAKE THAT AWAY FROM YOU! WHY?? My God, they're stupid religious zealots for goodness sakes! Reclaim your SELF-RESPECT, and stop lending your ear to these religious clowns, for you simply won't survive otherwise.
posted by Anonymous, at
2/23/2008 2:03 PM
Zeke, sorry pal, but you're not just a fool to be a part of a religion that hates you.
We should of course strive to educate the victims of ex-gay programs, the ones who were never given accurate information in the first place - to let them know there are more options out there than what they are being led to believe there are. And perhaps there are more ways to fight the ex-gay movement and rescue those poor suckers than what are currently being employed.
But one thing we must never stop doing is questioning "faith". Religions - even the "moderate" kinds - make numerous claims that are demonstrably preposterous, and they should be questioned more, not less. The whole reason people get suckered by this quackery in the first place is that they've been conditioned by their religious upbringings to believe in (and fear) invisible gods, angels, saviors, devils, etc. Your Bible contains several homophobic verses, in addition to verses that condone slavery and genocide. If not for Christians worshipping that damned book (or rather compilation of many books), and spreading their beliefs to every land they conquered, none of this would have happened.
You can't fight superstition with more superstition, even if your version of that superstition is "nicer". Eventually people are going to need to learn how to think for themselves.
posted by Anonymous, at
2/23/2008 4:42 PM
I too went through the JIM program. Yeh, Warriors stuff might make you feel good for the moment, sharing how your mother didn't do this or father did't do that. They get everyone all excited with endorphins overflowing, but day, weeks, months after, YOU ARE BACK TO SQURE ONE! YOU HAVEN'T REALLY CHANGED and any therapist or rep of JIM knows that this is all a bunch of nonsense. Follow the money trail folks. This is my experience and I know of quite a few others. So, where is the professionally peer reviewed study for these revelations that this JIM turns gays into straights? This doesn't even pass the research smell test let alone get published in a peer reviewed journal. Yes, this also smells of internet joke and clown Richard Cohen, permanently expelled from ACA for serious ethical violations, who still thinks that he and others can and should get away with this junk science, including tennis racquet pillow pounding, cuddling, licking, and who knows what else masquerading as good therapy and science
posted by Anonymous, at
2/23/2008 6:50 PM
All of these complaints about my religion versus your religion, or my lack of religious vs. your religion, and why that makes you better than me. Please understand that the issue is RELIGION, not John's vs. Mohammed's? It is a form of socially approved mass psychosis; it is just stuff that someone made up and insists is true. Because it is not true from the get-go, and because it a form of psychosis, it allows areas of the psyche to exist and operate where reality is not welcomed, and principles have no meaning. It allows the proponents of female circumcision to say that women should have their "womanhood" cut from them, to prevent them from acting as a muslim cleric is ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that all women must. He clearly knows no woman well, and no sane woman would want to know a guy who thinks she exists for the sole purpose of satisfying him, and catering to his fears. But he's no worse than the Hindu guy saying being called Muslim is an insult. He's no worse than the Christian telling us that God hates fags. Ot the Iranian mullahs saying that all Americans are minions of Satan and must be desttroyed. It is no different from Pat Robertson saying that he personally prayed away a hurricane from Florida; i.e., God sends a hurricane but is talked out of it by Pat, or God just didn't notice that there was a hurricane and thanks Pat for keeping ME up to date? God is what is used to justify what cannot be justified by any other means. Each religion believes that it alone has possession of the truth. That does not permit any practicioner of any religion (except for Unitarians--they'll believe any heresy!) to even consider the question: either they are all right in their possession of the truth (an intriguing possibility, but not likely) or (far more likely) they are all wrong. The real issue, my dears, is that ALL RELIGIONISTS ARE ALL FUCKING NUTS, AND THE NUT CASES ARE RUNNING THE ASYLUM. Even the GOOD religious people are still talking to people who are not there, and supporting the Big Nasties like the Catholic Church. And why? Because it does SOME good?(And surely THERE is an institution that consistently does the devil's work for him, and has done for centuries. Burn a witch? Sure, why not. Birth Control for the Catholic third world? Not what God wants. He would rather see poor Filipino's sell their kids to sex tourists than see a condom). Unfortunately, some of them also believe that whatever they do in the name of their religion, no matter how much damage it does, must be OK because GOD TOLD THEM TO DO IT!!! I don't argue that religion accomplishes some good in the world. But it also accomplishes a great deal of damage. It is incorrect to think just because more good is done than evil (and that is a questionable assertion, bit I will let it pass) that somehow the good cancels out the evil. That is just plain old Church logic. The evil is still there, right along side the good. But the religionists can't see that, and so justify further evil. Religion is not what enobles mankind. It is what prevents mankind from getting its collective shit together and progressing as a species.
posted by Anonymous, at
2/24/2008 12:10 PM
Anonymous, you hit the bull's-eye. Religion is indeed the acceptance of delusion, and it has done far, far more bad than good. It's pure psychosis. Look what these people have done to this country. We must fight them tooth and nail, unless you want our children to grow up in a country where science class involves indoctrinating them into the Adam and Eve fable, or where our kids get STDs because zealots hid the facts about sexual health from them. That isn't goodness, it's scandalous, and there's nothing holy about it.
posted by Anonymous, at
2/24/2008 12:55 PM
Well anon, you believe in the devil - that's for sure. isn't that a kind of religion?
posted by Anonymous, at
2/24/2008 1:44 PM
As humans we would still find a way to justify evil even if no religions existed. And I find it funny that Judaism is not being mentioned at all, not even in reference to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which is the most common criticism. Why's that? Is the Holocaust too fresh in ppl's minds? We ARE pretty much the root of the problem - we're the oldest of the surviving monotheist religions; we pretty much wrote 2/3 of that 4000 year old book people worship so much today.
posted by Emily K, at
2/24/2008 2:42 PM
it really doesn't matter if you call it a religion or a thought or philosphy. that a person has a belief system of sorts that is not entirely empirical is the problem. no one can get away from it. scientist even hav biases (especially when they are trying to promote a new diet or anti aging cream)
posted by Anonymous, at
2/24/2008 5:04 PM
All that mumbo jumbo about Adam and Eve is pure fiction. The religionists and creationists are consenting to incest, assuming A & E were the first man and woman created out of nothing by some "deity". In order to go forth and multiply, their children must have engaged in incest to have made that happen. No wonder we have so many morons on this planet both here and abroad. Religion is a breeding ground for it, and I agree, it IS a psychosis.
posted by Anonymous, at
2/25/2008 7:54 AM
ANON: Yes, scientists have biases, but they build safeguards into the scientific method to eliminate their personal beliefs, i.e., double blind studies, etc., Anon, why are you trying to undercut the validity of science? It must contradict your beliefs, I am guessing.
Robert, Nyc: I'm sure both you and I would be perfectly willing to leave religious people to believe what they want, wishing them the best in life, if they would just leave us alone. Some here have suggested we not attack religion, but we will never just lie back and not respond to their shameful, public expressions of bigotry. "Rev." Ken Hutcherson two weeks ago: "God hates effeminate men". How foolish to suggest we "leave them alone" in the face of such sickening behavior. We must respond and destroy these people.
posted by Anonymous, at
2/25/2008 12:36 PM
Robert NYC and Chris L: Such hateful and destructive rhetoric does nothing to further your cause of "reason." In order to beat your opponent, you must be better than them. Are they not calling for YOUR destruction?
Also, you are both deluding yourselves if you think destruction of all religion will bring about peace and order. Communist Russia all but obliterated religious practice in the USSR, causing many to risk their lives to defect and try to escape. That government was just as destructive of the human spirit as any theocracy.
You both are exactly what your opposition see you as stereotypically: Angry, ardent "godless" secular activists hell-bent on destroying [insert religion here]. You are who your opposition can point to and say "SEE??? I knew we were right about them!" And in the process you destroy your cause. It happened with my people when Abe Foxman protested Gibson's "Passion:" It fulfilled an historical stereotype - that Jews are nervous, closed-minded, and angry whenever a Christian tries to "share the good news and save" them. It immediately put us in a bad position and them in a "meek, saintly" position.
And please tell me exactly how drastic your plans are to cleanse the world of religion? Would you have us cleansed ethnically?
posted by Emily K, at
2/25/2008 4:11 PM
Emily, communism in the former USSR wasn't an absense of religion, it was the replacement of worship of an imaginary god with worship of a leader. In both cases dissent isn't tolerated and one must express blind allegience to someone rather than to truth and making the world the best place it can be for all of us. The problem with communism was that it was just another form of religion. Religion and communism relied on belief without evidence, were the enemies of rationality. Building societies based on equality for all and rationality can only make things better.
posted by Priya Lynn, at
2/25/2008 4:34 PM
priya lynn, it's really amazing how people can redefine 'religion' to score cheap political points. Haven't you read popular conservative books calling liberalism a religion?
posted by Anonymous, at
2/25/2008 5:34 PM
Emily, my plans to cleanse this country of religion are to completely allow and protect all religious freedom and to preserve everyone's right to believe and practice whatever they wish, while simultaneously engaging in public education efforts to discourage the religious worldview from being embraced in the public arena as it concern public policy.
Emily, look at what these people do to our kids. Texas has one of the highest STD and teen pregnancy rates in the country, all because religious persons refused to tell them the truth about human sexuality, instead bullshitting them with this absurd "simply abstain" mantra. Look at what the Christians have tried to do to science class in some states. They want the incestuous Adam and Eve fable taught as fact alongside the science of evolution.
Emily, you are right, they call people like me "godless secularists," but I don't care what they call me. I'm not trying to impress them or gain their respect. I'm trying to defeat them, becasue you and I will always be an abomination to them, and they still call us that hurtful name in the year 2008.
As a teenager, I anguished and cried everytime I heard them assert how worthless and evil I was. For years, I thought I had a "demon" inside of me, because that's what those ignoramuses told me about myself. For goodness sakes, I almost commited suicide as a result.
Emily, I've seen gays try to soft-peddle it when it comes to "people of faith", but they simply always wind up getting shat upon. I admire your desire for peace between all people, and I have that very same desire, more than you know.
When they stop defaming gays and driving children to despair, I'll stop fighting them. It's actually so simple! When they start to actually follow Jesus's command to "love your neighbor as yourself", the gay community will be truly content to leave them alone to believe any religion that they want to believe in.
posted by Anonymous, at
2/26/2008 12:03 PM
"If we really want to shut down the "ex-gay" industry and rescue these souls we have to at least address what's driving them there in the first place and offer them alternatives. We have to refrain from questioning or mocking their faith. We have to work with them from where they are, not where we want them to be."
Sorry Zeke, but a majority of the so-called "faith" of these "ex-gays", is nothing more than plagiarism of Joseph Goebbels words.
When Randy Thomas oinks "gays are affluent, elite, always gets the promotion at work above everyone else, and they're rolling in the dough", sorry - but that ain't no fucking faith.
However, Randy Thomas on the other hand, is the one rolling in the dough - in more ways than one: money from Exodus, plus that Stay-Puft look he got going on lately!
It's nuttery. And all of the well-known "ex-gays" are proven to be beyond nuts.
Name ONE well-known "ex-gay" who's the least bit humble, isn't arrogant or smarmy, or isn't holier-than-thou, and I will personally fly up to wherever you live, will kiss your bare ass, and will post the video on YouTube, for the whole world to see - and I'll even apologize to the "ex-gays" for disrupting their wannabe-nazi propaganda.
The challenge is open to anyone....and everyone will lose.
posted by S., at
2/27/2008 4:30 AM
