Tuesday, August 12, 2008
(Weekly Column)Photo illustration by Rene Flores, Copyright 2007. Used with permissionIs ManHunt, the wildly popular online cruising site with the slogan "get on, get off," a blessing or a curse for gay men? This is the question Out Magazine writer Joseph Gross posed in one of the most
provocative articles of the year.
The Out commentary points to the benefits of the site, but posits that it also has, "a tendency to isolate us, encourage objectification, and diminish our sense of life's nonsexual possibilities."
"For a long time it has been considered normal to be on the net," Hollywood physician Gary Cohan said in the article. "We need to start thinking, that's not normal."
In his most powerful passage, Goss laments that cruising on ManHunt has come with a steep social cost. "I don't like to think about the number of books I could have read, languages I could have learned, and friends I could have stayed in better touch with if I had not wasted so much time cruising online these past 12 years."
Why are gay men spending so much time online? Why are the profiles so explicit? Do sites like ManHunt, as the author claims, "exaggerate our propensity to objectify each other?"
I don't necessarily think so and believe that gay online culture is a result of the law of supply and demand. There are simply too few potential partners suitable for relationships. To make up for this husband deficit, we are thrust into fierce competition -- which is reflected by the level of skin shown in many of our online ads.
Here is the hard truth -- if you are looking for a life partner the numbers are not in your favor. If you take the total number of gay men in your city, subtract the number you are not sexually compatible with, minus the ones who have deal breaking habits, minus the guys who you have nothing in common with, minus the pathological closet cases who play straight while playing around online, minus the ones who just plain annoy you -- the universe of potential mates is remarkably limited. This harsh reality is true for gay men in large cities and especially for rural gay men who can't find a hunk in Podunk.
What we are talking about is sexual Darwinism and it affects straight people too. Heterosexuals also trudge through the snow for a night of speed dating, have online profiles and spend lonely evenings in bars looking for Mr. or Ms. Right. Like us, when they have uninspiring one night stands they remind themselves that there are more fish in the sea. When they cast their nets, however, they do so in the ocean, while we are fishing in a pond. The exponentially higher number of potential mates, combined with the fact that straight people can flirt anywhere without fear of getting bashed, creates an entirely different dating experience.
ManHunt -- much like the earlier gay bar cruising scene -- reflects the understanding that we must show off what we've got because there are limited opportunities. We don't want someone we are interested in to never get to experience our great personality because someone distracted him with a naughty picture -- so we show a little more than we might like in order to compete in this cutthroat marketplace.
Until we learn to clone gay people or magically convert heterosexuals -- as the religious right imagines we can -- we will have a sexualized culture as we try to get the upper hand, so we won't have to settle for our hand.
Such hyper-competition can best be seen at large Pride celebrations, where normally staid gay men bare all because for a few hours the dating pool increases by several hundred thousand. This behavior mirrors the way many small town women act (think skimpy clothes and perfume wafting through the air) when a Navy ship docks, increasing their odds of finding a husband.
Goss concludes in Out Magazine that online hookups can be harmful because "decoupling sex from emotion is a fool's errand." But, I'm not sure that such decoupling is going on most of the time. Online meeting is a utilitarian audition where the actor usually doesn't get a callback. It isn't because he didn't read his lines well -- he just might not be right for the part. What sites like ManHunt do, is give busy gay professionals the opportunity to kiss enough frogs before they hopefully find a prince -- which is no guarantee.
As the article points out, this process can be tiresome, frustrating, even addictive, as gay men feel as if they are one click away from love. And, the truth is, they are - or it could be one million taps on the mouse to find a spouse. There is no sugar coating that in a small community of limited partners, if you want a man you have to hunt -- hence the success of ManHunt. All one can do is keep his head up and never forget that the next online fling might lead to a diamond ring.
48 Comments:
Too funny. Can anyone make up their own?
posted by , at
8/12/2008 7:13 PM
Finding a potential mate or life partner is difficult for all us.
Who do you trust? What standards are there today for making life long relationships work? None. Doesn't matter if your gay or straight. We do sexualize a lot of ramantic relationships and objectify people by hieght, weight, hair etc... When did we lose our ability to really love someone? I'm not sure. I know we can't keep upping the mark for physical traits when we can't even look at bona fide human attributes such as - stability as a positive trait. Online or not - we are looking in all the wrong places for love when we objectify eachother.
posted by , at
8/12/2008 7:19 PM
What an absolutely depressing, life-sucking article. Why bother being a "normal" person when finding a mate when those tactics don't work? Is it really true that all gay men are easy sex-fiends just looking for a good screw first and a potential husband second? Is sex really the gay handshake? Maybe this is why ex-gay clubs are still popular, despite waning numbers, they are STILL able to pull an auidence: Because there are gays, especially gay Christians who seek a more wholesome courtship, that see sites like Manhunt and articles like this one and lose hope. Maybe (the few?) gay men out there who DON'T want to fuck right after eye-contact and WANT to court someone in a restaurant or a movie theatre see the statistics that Wayne has presented and think, "I'll go straight if that's my alternative." And hey, I don't blame them. I don't know if it's the same for lesbians, but if this is what's out there, I MYSELF might wanna go straight. I mean, crimony.
posted by Emily K, at
8/12/2008 8:32 PM
Emily,
Do you think so?
Straights have as much trouble finding mates and staying together. Have you seen the stats on households that are unmarried? Or the divorce rate, or the success of sites like match.com?
I don't think the dismal view of gay life is any more dismal than that of straight life. And I certainly don't think that's the reason people are seeking ex gaydom.
Pornography in this country is at an all time high. And more and more women are reproting problems with it. It's our culture of sex and objectifying people. This is in no way just a gay issue but one that is being experienced by all of us.
posted by , at
8/12/2008 9:02 PM
A big reason people are seeking exgaydom is that gay men, like all men tend to objectify. Unlike the straight world where women are not as empowered as men in respect to earnings, there is a tendency to settle for Mr good-enough rather then mr right. ironicly, mr good-enough often turns out to be mr. right all along. With gay men you have two more or less equally matched people socially trying to get as much as they can physically. Men crave the physical (trophy wives, for example, ie John McCains beer heiress wife).
When you reach a point where you see that one night stand is actually a person and not just a meat puppet with great cock and pecs, and let compasion set in, you find love. My partner would never make the cover of GQ magazine, even though I "dated" plenty of guys who would, but I wouldn't trade him for all the gold in fort knox.
posted by , at
8/12/2008 9:13 PM
So far, I'm hearing nobody deny that gay men are sex fiends who typically meet their future relationships (if they even have them) during one-night-stands. Isn't saying that men are naturally "easy" or "objectifiers" playing into the same gender stereotypes that ex-gay "therapists" use to "heal" gays?
posted by Emily K, at
8/12/2008 9:27 PM
Wayne, I think you missed the mark here. If your article was about online dating in general, I could be down with a portion of what you're saying, but to talk this highly of manhunt...I don't think so.
It's been a couple years since I was kneed deep in the dating pool, so perhaps I'm out of touch. But when I was looking for love in all the web places, Manhunt was NOT about finding Mr. Right, it was about finding Mr. Right Now. It's Sex Delivery, nothing more, at least in Chicago. I was a member, briefly, and along with having some sort of constant javascript problem, the other frustrating thing about Manhunt for me was that I didn't come across one profile where the guy wanted anything more than to get his rocks off. Get in, get off, get out. I had more than a few emails from guys...making fun of me for actually looking for a relationship on Manhunt. Manhunt is a step above putting an ad on craigslist.
Now, if you were talking about match.com, or manjam.com, or any of the other online personals, or myspace/facebook, you could certainly make a case. But Mahunt? You might as well have written about the men's room at the truckstop off the interstate.
posted by Unknown, at
8/12/2008 9:30 PM
Emily,
From what I hear, and I may be wrong, I don't think the objectifying card is being used to straighten gay men out. Unless you have some inside and reliable source that is reporting this??However, it may be in use for those who are addicted to porn because there is no way you can get around the idea that porn isn't objectification of another human being.
I do know that objectification is happening all over college campuses and the US. Men, women, etc... objectify each other.
posted by , at
8/12/2008 10:10 PM
Emily,
Only in the academic world of Post-structuralism theory can one hold the belief that men arn't naturally easy.
posted by , at
8/12/2008 10:17 PM
The Out article makes too much out of sites like Manhunt. It blames Manhunt for the death of gay bookstores like Lambda Rising without mentioning real culprits like Amazon.com. I'd rather see an article about a new retail phenom that sells something you can't easily get on the internet, that provides a leisurely inviting space for guys to linger, lounge and oh yeah, meet.
As for Manhunt, isn't the internet full of gay dating sites that hope to feature personalities first, build real relationships and forego the dick shots? Don't know of any? Huh? Nobody goes there? What? Well what are YOU looking for?
While the Out article decries the lack of examples, mentors and dating rituals, it fails to mention that gay men have NEVER had these things. If anything is true we have MORE of these items NOW than ever before, which unfortunately is not saying much. What we need are articles profiling new mentors, inventing new rituals and suggesting or finding new businesses which address our needs.
Just as glbt retirement communities are only now being invented, nearly any business or service which targets this community is by definition new. The founders of Manhunt are making $30M per year! That's not incentive enough?
posted by , at
8/12/2008 11:20 PM
Emily:
Gay men are not sex fiends - they are just men. When they are single they are inclined to have fun. When they are in relationships this changes the equation. It really depends on where a man is in his life.
Do I really have to remind you of Bill Clinton, John Edwards, Newt Gingrich, etc. to make the point that straight and gay men like to have meaningless sex? It is fun. It is exciting. It is an adventure.
I'm not sure how an ex-gay ministry offers anything except the absurd myth that gay men like sex and straight men are well behaved. This is little more than Christian fundamentalist propaganda - which has little bearing on reality.
My article simply points out that the limited number of gay men compared to the general population increases competition for both sexual and relational partners.
This can be a bit depressing - but large numbers of gay men can and do find relationships every day. It is just a matter of putting oneself out there, doing the hard work and then getting lucky enough to meet the right person.
posted by Wayne Besen, at
8/12/2008 11:48 PM
That goes for everyone!
posted by , at
8/13/2008 12:13 AM
ex-gay ministries offer nothing of value. But desperate gay Christians from Podunk who might not want to hop on the anonymous sex adventure train don't know that. (they are out there, I've met them.. there's 6 billion people on this earth, after all...) What word of advice would the men commenting here offer them?
And despite Wayne's offering of political slimeballs as hard evidence of hopeless male slut-dom, I'm not going to buy into Nicolosi-style stereotype just yet. It seems people here are making a case that gay monogamy is actually gay "monogamy" - that men need a good woman to calm them down and keep them loyal - so two men could NEVER be in a solid relationship; that it is the exception to the law.
posted by Emily K, at
8/13/2008 12:31 AM
It is even more simple.
It ain't just gay men, it ain't just modern humans.
All of life that engages in sex, advertizes to get a mate (or many mates). Peacock males devote signficant resources to those tails solely to attract a mate. The mane on a lion actually increases the heat stress on his body, but, it signals to females the quality of his genes for strength, intelligence, etc.
The displays at Pride Parades and street fairs is nothing compared to what goes on in the rest of the animal kingdom. There are fish that develop elaborate finnage, not to impress the opposite sex, but to intimidate and impress their own sex. Think about antlers and horns, all that constant noise from crickets, the cacophony from frogs and toads, all of it to attract a mate. And often, the displays and calls to attract a mate either increase the chance of reproduction, or carry a significant biological cost in terms of energy.
The unnatural thing was puritan prudery, the idea that the human body is dirty and shameful, that sex is bad and disgusting. That damaged society, people, and relationships.
From Pride Celebrations to Girls Gone Wild to Match.com - it is all just a reminder that we come from this planet, are part of the web of life here.
posted by , at
8/13/2008 2:16 AM
Emily --
All of a sudden you start bringing "monogamy" into the discussion, as though other people have been talking about it.
I don't really see any discussion about this, or your implication that people are arguing that gay men can't be monogamous, in the preceding comments. The point of the article and comments is that it's difficult to find such a relationship (the implication being that it's what we all want, gay or straight.)
You bring up "ex-gay" clubs as though that's really the real issue. The point of the post was that it's more difficult for gay men to find meaningful relationships in a world where increased competition makes it difficult to compete without being increasingly sexually objectified. Not that it's impossible.
My advice to those misguided enough to think that they can change something fundamental about who they are: don't lie to yourself. Don't convince yourself that you can change something that's fundamental to your identity. If you really think that you're attracted to men, and you think that in order to have full satisfaction from life, you need a relationship with a woman, you've got issues you need to resolve before you actually get into a relationship.
I don't think the example of politicians is intended to say that all men are sluts. Many men, including gay men, don't sleep around as much as the examples that have been given. But slut-dom isn't something that's unique to gay men, and some of the politicians that have been in the news are very visible examples of this.
Nothing posted here suggests that monogamous gay relationships are impossible, and for those that are paying attention, there are plenty of examples of monogamous gay couples out there. And there are far more examples of non-monogamous heterosexual couples out there than most people give credit to.
So, Emily, I'm not sure what your point is. Someone has a pessimistic outlook on gay dating life, which is only slightly more pessimistic than his outlook on straight dating life. Why ought that turn someone straight?
posted by , at
8/13/2008 3:08 AM
The internet can be used at discretion, whether it's for porn dating cruising or shopping. The fact it's the most novel idea probably ever created does give it that sense of mystery we all love. And for many, it's an unfortunate isolating experience, but not just for cruising. There are 12 step programs now just for internet obsession just for surfing alone. My advice, everything in moderation, even moderation. And if that doesn't work, maybe join a webaholics anonymous group, at least it gets you out there mingling with people who want to ditch the internet obsession. And who knows, maybe that's just the place that illusive diamond ring will pop up.
posted by , at
8/13/2008 6:17 AM
While I don't dispute that it is difficult to find a partner, there appears to be a logical flaw in the argument. Straight people are "fishing in the ocean" while gay people are "fishing in a pond" -- but as far as we know, LGBTs are a pond in terms of their numbers in the general population. Studies suggest that gay people represent something like 3%-4% of the population. Thus, while there are fewer potential mates, there are also fewer potential competitors, or if you prefer, less demand. The question becomes whether the number of potential mates for gays and lesbians is proportional to the population of gays and lesbians looking for mates or if the ratio is smaller than is the case among straight people. We don't know the answer to this question.
posted by Unknown, at
8/13/2008 8:25 AM
Davidnotmaine:
Of this 3-4 percent, a significant portion are still in the closet, thus limiting the numbers. If everyone were out, this would widen the pond.
The pond is made even smaller by the people who are so damaged by homophobia that they have psychological scars that make it difficult for them to date.
Finally, the 3-4 percent (or whatever the number truly is) feels much smaller in that unless a person is easily perceived as gay - we don't know. Unlike heterosexuals, which presume everyone is straight, we don't have the luxury of presuming everyone is gay.
So, we may very well be passing by several suitable mates every day, but they think we are straight and we think they are. I suppose upgraded Gaydar would solve this problem and widen the dating pool.
posted by Wayne Besen, at
8/13/2008 9:15 AM
Emily:
Tons of gay men are in monogamous relationships. Others choose to have another arrangement. Many straight couples also chose such arrangements but are significantly less likely to talk openly about it. That explains the proliferation of "swingers clubs".
However, this particular column only addresses people who are still single - not the dynamics of relationships. That's would b a future column.
I would also add that I think the other extreme in dating is also harmful. Religions that push no sex until marriage can't be serious. Putting two people together with no sexual or dating experience is a really stupid idea that encourages mass cheating.
I think that helps explains the high divorce rate in the Bible Belt. People marry young just to get laid - although they can't tell because they are infatuated. Then, years later, they find they are curious about what it would be like to sleep with other people. Then affairs occur.
The religious model is a heck of lot dumber than one where people gain experience and satisfy their curiosity before they settle down. I am willing to bet that people who bring some degree of experience to the relationship are better at making it work long term.
posted by Wayne Besen, at
8/13/2008 9:25 AM
I came out in the 70s at the age of 22, was never promiscuous and I didnt meet my life-partner until I was in my 40s!; but he was worth the wait. So, those of you who are still single and looking, dont despair, it can happen when you least expect it (and arent even looking). That's what happened to me.
posted by , at
8/13/2008 10:13 AM
This is something I wrote to a guy nearly six years ago. I met a great guy about 6 months after, and we're oging to be married next week. but i have never forgotten the letter:
"Just a thought:
Maybe you haven't found a boyfriend because you haven't found a good enough fit to invest in a partnership, to use your words.Maybe is you took the trouble to get to know the man in front of you, find out who he is and what he has to offer in your life, it would work better than holding up your checklist of qualifications, expectations, and specifications and seeing if he conforms to it. Maybe if you invested in the partnership, you might find a man that is a good enough fit.
This is not to say that we are not entitled to like what we like. But I can tell you that the great love of my life was a man who was HIV+ and earned about 1/3 of what I did. But he had the qualities required to make a great relationship, and once I got over my stuff, and saw him for who he was rather than who I wanted him to be, it made the difference. We had 5-1/2 wonderful years together, and I would not trade them for anything.
I am a 52 (now 58) year old man. I've been dating since my husband's death 7 years ago. I have all the qualities that make a great catch. I have a good career, many wonderful friends, a beautiful home, the ability to communicate clearly and well, I'm emotionally available, in better shape than many men 15 years younger than I am, good looking enough to get laid whenever I want to by attractive men, am well thought of by friends and colleagues alike.
And except for nine months with a boyfriend three years ago, I have been single all this time. Not because I wanted to, not because there is something wrong with me, but because I have met mostly men who say they want a relationship, but only if all of their checklist has been met, and who think they are ready for a relationship, but in fact, haven't a clue. They are always on the lookout for the magical, elusive chemistry--the best legal drug available. And they don't know that chemistry means nothing more than chemistry. They don't notice that they can have great chemistry with someone, and it still doesn't go anywhere. And of course, without chemistry, they are not willing to get to know the man in front of them, and to give that chemistry a chance to develop.
Could this be you?
Just some thoughts.
posted by , at
8/13/2008 11:30 AM
No offense to the bloke who mentions and compares us humans to animals - but I prefer to view myself as human. Granted we are all mammals but my process of selecting a mate is a little more refined that just "puff" and feathers. And I'm a little more discriminating than just going by scent and avialability.
posted by , at
8/13/2008 3:42 PM
You homos are sodomites and eat anuses and actually like it.
God will smite you for your sick and twisted proklivites. Repent now. Jesus saves. Jesus heals. Jesus is LORD!
Marcel
posted by , at
8/13/2008 4:57 PM
"No offense to the bloke who mentions and compares us humans to animals - but I prefer to view myself as human. Granted we are all mammals but my process of selecting a mate is a little more refined that just "puff" and feathers. And I'm a little more discriminating than just going by scent and avialability."
That is not what science says.
Humans are animals, mammals are animals, and as the article points out, visual cues play a huge role in human sexuality.
Research has also demonstrated that humans are very much impacted by the scents of other humans when it comes to mating - with some interesting results like gay men prefering the natural scent of other gay men over the scent of het men or women.
Really, at the root of your argument is a disregard, even a contempt, for non-human life. That isn't healthy or wise. Research is showing that many species are just as careful, sometimes more careful, in their choice of mate, than some humans are. Instead of dismissing the evidence, it makes more sense to use it as a window into human behavior, particularly large scale phenomena where individual choices and standards are lost in the collective average.
posted by , at
8/13/2008 5:22 PM
lolz @ Marcel the troll
posted by Emily K, at
8/13/2008 5:22 PM
Marcel, honey. get a grip and get a life and stop cruising gay websites if you don't like what's here-- if you don't like what's here, that is.
It's proclivities with a C, not a K. Perhaps you should cruise around dictionary sites rather than gay websites-- if you don't like what's here, that is.
As for jesus caring about gay stuff, ask Paul Barnes, Ted Haggard and Lonnie Latham. as for god caring about it, just look at human history. If he didn't care about 6 million jews, I doubt my sex life gets him exercised.
but whatever you think my sex life is-- and why you owuld think about--sure seems to get YOU exercised. I wonder why?
God has not smited me, but blessed me with a great life, a healthy body, a wonderful husband, a beautiful home, and fab friends. And i am a big time, as you put it so charmingly, SODOMITE!!! How has god rewarded you for your life of purity and judgment?
and BTW, the eating anuses thing? What have YOU been reading? Or eating? It seems to have had some effect on your brain.
Honey, i don't mean tu hurt your feelings, but use the brain god gave you and THINK instead of cowering in fear, writing to anonymous homosexuals and telling THEM to repent.
Far better Christians than you ( I assume) have long determined that this is merely prejudice disguised as religious belief.
posted by , at
8/13/2008 6:46 PM
actually anus eating is a big part of straight porn.
posted by , at
8/13/2008 9:03 PM
Please do not feed the trolls; it's a waste of everyone's energy.
posted by Emily K, at
8/13/2008 10:53 PM
Actually
eatmysass.com and fistmyass.com are both straight porn sites.
posted by , at
8/13/2008 10:58 PM
Anon at 8:52
Point taken. I definitely think looking at animals and sexuality is a window - but looking at humans is a better window. I was being harsh.
Humans just make it so damn difficult to document because (maybe perhaps we are very decietful, coniving (sp?) and much more elaborate in our game to mate)
I don't know - I'm not so sure I'd want all of my experiences documented with my name next to them!!! LOL!!!
posted by , at
8/14/2008 2:15 AM
Marcel,
As a christian ( that is me) talking to you as a christian (you) do you think your words were edifying to someone or rebuking in a christlike manner?
I don't think either describes you.
Your tone and manner are not the kind of instruction we are given when proclaiming the gospel.
Now I am certain beyond doubt that all gay people in America have heard the rhetoric you just spewed out. What, in God's name, do you think you have accomplished?
You do know that Jesus spoke to the disciples that there would be some people who would die and cry to God - "Lord, Lord didn't I perform miracles in your name?" And the Lord God will say, "I do not know you."
I am concerned that your actions and writings are disingenuous to Christ's instructions. I am not sure and only God knows.
Maybe you need to do some reading with an accountability partner on Jesus? And maybe read a book on gay people and their lives.
Coming here, or to any website and letting go of your own frustration on others - seems unholy - though we have all been angered and shown it in inappropriate ways. So, I'm not just picking on you for your religious views and am saying that by being among those whom you castigate you might see how your words have separated you and them from God.
posted by , at
8/14/2008 2:28 AM
Sorry Emily - I felt compelled to reply.
posted by , at
8/14/2008 2:28 AM
Emily, I totally agree with you about not feeding the trolls. But ya gotta wonder how much money Marcel has now spent on asseaters.com. As stats have shown, it's the homophobes that bark the loudest that get the biggest boners when monitored watching gay porn. And Annomous, Fistmyass.com? Talk about throwing the troll a bone. ;)
posted by , at
8/14/2008 4:21 AM
Wayne,
I've got to agree with you on the smallness of the pond issue. However, I would only see that argument as reinforcing the necessity of tools and technologies like the internet. How else can a disbursed population communicate?
And on the visibility issue, I realize we're no where near a time when any form of visibility isn't going to be satirized or turned to insult. But considering the variety of ideas that humans routinely communicate through bumperstickers, tattoos, clothing, jewelry, etc, why not something that conveys orientation? When I go to my gym, the guy on the stairmaster next to me is likely to be wearing a yamulka and star, or tats of his fav heavy metal band, or t-shirt of some non-profit he volunteers for. They all advertise.
posted by , at
8/15/2008 3:00 PM
new to this blogging and being my opionated self, perfect fit. I subscribe to 'out' and read the 'manhunt' article. The timing was perfect because just that weekend I put up my own pics and profile o the site. I am a total loss in understanding the fuss..at times seems quite overblown. I have been a single gay man for 2 years and have posted pics/profile on several gay sites.I am really enjoying all of it. My expectations are realistic and if something happens terrific, if not I am interacting with some decent men,who I otherwise would never have met. The point is I am making an effort and along the way have interacted with some great guys. I don't hook..more of the dating type and thus I gravitate to those type of men. This term 'objectify' has me also baffled. Is it news that lots of us spend time working on our bodies...not clear what the problem is.. Our culture does place an emphasis on looks, such as the jewish culture places emphasis on education.Again what is the issue here? What is the problem with men who take care of themselves,look good,and seek out men with similar physical status? I am no adonis but I do look pretty decent, I seek out men exactly myself, well educated, hard-working, don't hook, like to go on dates, and most importantly, remain, as hard as it is, monogamous. Does it really matter where I find that person?
posted by rob of nyc, at
8/19/2008 3:51 PM
Our culture does place an emphasis on looks, such as the jewish culture places emphasis on education.
The evangelicals place an emphasis on "purity"
The Jews, of course, ahead of the curve here. Knowledge should trump superstition. But this will never be the case in the USA.
posted by , at
8/20/2008 12:39 PM
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