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Wayne Besen
PO Box 25491
Brooklyn, NY 11202
Religion is a choice, gay is not. That's what you should have said.
posted by Anonymous, at
11/14/2008 9:56 AM
Wayne would have said that, but Bill cut him off. I usually enjoy O'Reilly's show, even though I often disagree with the man, but the segment in question was done shoddily. O'Reilly didn't seem to understand the dynamic between the two guests, but I think Wayne did the best he could under the circumstances. O'Reilly seemed uncharacteristically unprepared.
posted by Chris L., at
11/14/2008 11:11 AM
Words, words, words,.... Let's not call it marriage, let's not call it civil rights.
Is it the language of the argument, or the substance of it that matters?
Blacks and gays DO have being a suspect minority in common, that could NEVER win by popular vote.
Debating semantics, rather than the substance of being suspect class is at the heart of how to reach each other.
And that gay people cannot separate themselves from their orientation anymore than a person of color could separate themselves from that is how to talk about this.
So.
Let's go to the churches, and temples and schools and allow for open and complete engagement.
People are shouting from the sidelines, but gay folks have to be on intimate terms of exchange. The opposition is shrinking away, and unfortunately, some things are validating the already cartoonish perception that gay people are threatening and fearsome people.
I'll write to Jasmine and see what we can do about putting together townhalls and meetings that are about serious interaction, not loud rallies.
I know some folks in LA who want to do just that and change the strategy she's suggested.
Regan it's good to see you here. I have nothing against talking to the opposition, sitting down in a civil manner and trying to understand each other in some way. But I can guarantee you one thing: they'll embrace us, hug us, say they love us, and then go right back to the ballot box and piss on us and our lives once again. Neither side will change their minds or actions when it comes to this issue.
They think that allowing gay people to marry somehow tarnishes and taints the institution; I think it only beautifies it more. They will never come to our position because they are ideologues on the issue, as are we. I am not against sitting down with them, but we should know that the good feeling created by such would only go so far. Maybe I'm wrong; who knows.
posted by Chris L., at
11/14/2008 11:55 AM
UGH, I... seriously I just can't watch him. It will ruin my whole day.
Did you notice when OReilly brought up the thought of your sentiment as entering a court of law. He seems to think he is the judge. Someone needs to remind him that he is not the administrator of justice and/or legal interpretation. You did great Wayne. Ms. Cannick is the one who does not get it. Gay rights is indeed civil rights and can be driven home with discussions on interracial marriage without people denying it being the same. Notice how Fux Noose commentator does not bring that up. He is not the person to be speaking with because he flat out said homosexuality is anaction. That is so ignorant that people who feel that way must be dismisses as backward and ignorant.
posted by Spouse Walker, at
11/14/2008 2:07 PM
Chris, I agree.
Regan, I'm not against sitting down with the other side either, assuming they really want to, and there will be many who will refuse. I'm not so convinced that having dialog with them will do that much good. Their religious beliefs are so firmly entrenched in their psyche that nothing you say will ever make them change their views on same-sex marriage let alone our equality, there are many who believe we shouldn't have full equality. It just doesn't register with them. The majority of African Americans for instance are offended that we compare our struggle with theirs. It will take decades to make any headway on that one.
If you look at the history of religion in western civilization, you will see that is has a very long and violent history discriminating against others, preaching hatred, intolerance against Jews for example during the inquisition, the crusades, forced conversions, compelling other who were different to believe in the christian way or face death. It hasn't really changed that much. They may not be killing us any longer but they're doing it another way by trying to disenfranchise us by taking away our full civil rights. Personally, I would go as far as saying that most religion is evil or has evil intent when it comes to us. There are very few that aren't. What I still cannot understand is why are religious groups in this country more than any other western society allowed to influence the outcome of legislation and why do we allow it? I just don't get it. With an anti marriage equality president elect, I don't see us making that much progress.
posted by Anonymous, at
11/14/2008 2:50 PM
Look, there's no dialogue to be had here. Plain And Simple - Jasmyne and many other black GLBT activists fucked up and they're all hiding under the umbrella of religion.
All of them have done themselves and the entire GLBT community a major disservice.
posted by Anonymous, at
11/14/2008 4:15 PM
Billo the clown and the righties are so damn one sided. He pisses and moans about 'hate crimes' like someone getting a cross knocked out of her hand or a burning book of mormon. Meanwhile the mormon church is nothing but one big hate crime. Billo never showed a bloody gaybashed person, which happens almost daily, nor the corpse of a teenaged glbt suicide who was pushed over the edge by the hate speech from those phoney, plastic 'Christians'. I was at a gay marriage rally several years ago in NJ. There was an elderly woman walking around the room with a big anti-gay sign with some twisted religious bullshit on it. No one said a word to her or bothered her in any way. I remember saying to a friend that I was with, 'can you imagine one of us carrying a pro-gay sign in one of their churches or meetings? We'd need a transfusion by the time we got out of there.' Stories like this will never be heard on bilious billo's bullshit show.
posted by Anonymous, at
11/15/2008 10:14 AM
O'Reilly is one of the biggest hypocrites and bigoted pundits out there. This is the same man who had a lawsuit filed against him for sexual harrassment and settled out of court so the dirty details wouldn't get aired in a court trial. This is the same man who espouses moral vales, the sanctity of marriage. Maybe he should look in the mirror a little more. Sanctimonious blowhard! I would love to see him get his comeuppance along with the rest of the hate mongers such as Hannity, Gibson, Beck, Savage et al!
posted by Anonymous, at
11/15/2008 10:25 AM
Ng....I've been saying that for some time. Religion most definitely IS a choice, learned behavior as are hate, bigotry and hypocrisy espoused by most religions (I prefer the word "cults"), if not all. In my view they are the epitomy of evil as we've seen with Prop. 8.
posted by Anonymous, at
11/15/2008 10:29 AM
We've been trying to "dialogue" with these people for over twenty years now, and you can see where it has got us--not very far (there are a FEW that have learnt something from all this, but precious few).
I'm glad you appeared on the O'Reilly Factor--you may get somewhere with some of the viewers, though I doubt it. The majority of his audience are close-minded reactionaries. And how typical of him to cut people off before they say something that people might "get".
By all means let people "dialogue" if they wish, but the real action will have to be in the streets, at the voting booth, and in the courts. THAT is how we will finally get marriage equality.
posted by Merlyn, at
11/15/2008 11:22 AM
Merlyn, I tend to agree with you. I don't think dialog has done us that much good either. The listeners on O'Reilly's show for example are all right wing nutjobs and haters, that goes for most of the Fox network's programs. We need to keep the momentum going without letup. Lets have another Stonewall only this time....nationwide with huge demonstrations and civil unrest if need be and regular "million men marches" on state capitols. Its the only language they understand.
posted by Anonymous, at
11/15/2008 12:35 PM
Robertnyc: money. money is the only thing they understand. Tax Revolt in the droves.... you know why.....
posted by Spouse Walker, at
11/15/2008 2:11 PM
I suspected, as Wayne alluded to on the show, that Obama's opposition to gay marriage was more political expediency than how he really feels. That, of course, doesnt excuse him, but Billo's insistance that, 'Obama is against it', was self serving also. You might find this (2 page) article interesting.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5100064.ece
posted by Anonymous, at
11/15/2008 2:19 PM
My apologies, the full url didnt come out the first time.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5100064.ece
posted by Anonymous, at
11/15/2008 2:24 PM
still didnt work
the end of the url is /article5100064.ece
posted by Anonymous, at
11/15/2008 2:28 PM
I know a huge variety of people, some quite left-wing, some somewhere in the middle (like most Americans) who watch the O'Reilly Factor every night, some agreeing with him on points, some disagreeing, some agreeing/disagreeing with his guests, etc. I don't agree with him on everything but I do like when he HAS defended gay folks against the really blatant homophobes. You guys assuming that O'Reilly's audience is nothing but a bunch of Right Wing fanatics cheering him on are falling in a fascist way of thinking : dehumanize the "enemy" into a cartoonish stereotype. It's the type of non-thinking most gay activists try to force you into. (And the usual gay hatred of O'Reilly isn't exactly hurt by gay anti-Irish sentiment, so let's not pretend that's not a BIG part of it).
posted by Joey, at
11/15/2008 2:29 PM
Lets keep in mind that Loving in Loving v Virginia was a straight white male. We have a legal fight on our hands larger than we had thought. Having said that, we will be victorious.
posted by Spouse Walker, at
11/15/2008 11:28 PM
Why are you so obsessed with this woman?. All you are doing is contribute to alienate blacks and gay blacks even more. It is insulting that you suggest they are to blame for our loss on Prop 8 or that it is not as bad when white Catholics supported it than when blacks did. You desperately need to find someone to blame and, of course, you have to target the black community. Based on what Wayne?. On unreliable exit polls?. And even if we are to believe in those numbers, why target them?. Why not white Catholics, who are the largest and best organized group of antigay bigots in the world?. What do you want to accomplish by pointing your finger at a minority and making them responsible?. REALLY. What do you expect to accomplish?. Do you really think that you are going to get their support by putting your finger between their eyes and telling them “this is your faultâ€. Who needs the religious right to divide us and conquer when we have gay activists like you. I get your point: blacks are a minority and therefore we should automatically get their support, well, I’m sorry but it is not that simple. We (gays) don’t have to be at the top of their priorities just as they are not at the top of ours. Why have I never seen you react so outraged at the problem of racism and elitism within the gay community?. Why do you think that because blacks are a minority there can be no room for disagreement between them?. It is disgusting that you not only single them out but the way you oversimplify them. Cannick is not the problem. She has expressed her support for gay marriage. Yes, she is obviously more concerned with the problems of the African American community than the problems of the Gay community; so what?. Who are you to tell her what her priorities should be?. And yes, she has brought up her concerns about the lack of representation of blacks in the campaign against Prop 8, and that’s a very valid point Wayne. We as a community are extremely concerned with how we are represented in the media, we have sites entirely devoted to count the number of gay characters and personalities on mainstream media, so don’t tell me the issue of representation brought up by Cannick is irrelevant. You are helping no one with this catfight Wayne. It is pointless, childish and sad. We should be focusing on getting people to our cause, on integration, not division.
posted by PabloJ, at
11/16/2008 12:55 AM
I think it was Ms. Cannick who threw the first shot; i.e., she wrote the LA Times editorial which clearly drew a divisive line between blacks and whites; Wayne is just responding to her by saying that all races should be for equal marriage rights. On the O'Reilly Factor, Wayne forced her to get real and say that, despite cultural differences between blacks and whites, she did indeed support same-sex marriage.
posted by Chris L., at
11/16/2008 11:32 AM
javy: I feel that african americans should have known better. It has been proven true that blacks are just as ignorant as whites. Now go and attempt to silence someone else with your pc crap while you stand by defending them as we are stripped of our rights.
posted by Spouse Walker, at
11/16/2008 2:11 PM
"mail". Are you just as mad at Catholics as you are at black people?. I hate the fact that we lost, but I refuse to assign blame to one group, specially based on race, and that's not PC crap, that's common sense.
posted by PabloJ, at
11/16/2008 9:51 PM
javy: YES!!!!!!! I am equally as mad. Now what do you possibly have left to say? You will not silence me when the ship is sinking. Get your priorities straight.
posted by Spouse Walker, at
11/17/2008 2:24 AM
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