Tuesday, July 28, 2009
(Weekly Column)
-- Throngs of Fundamentalists approach Pride in Charlotte -- (Top)
-- God Sign (photo: Tidmus)
Also can be read at: The Huffington Post,
The Falls Church News Press and
365Gay.comOn Sunday, The New York Times featured
a chilling article on how fundamentalist Christians stalked, harassed and ultimately murdered Wichita abortion provider George Tiller, who they taunted with the nickname, "Tiller the Baby Killer."
A lone gunman, who used the e-mail name "ServantofMessiah", shot Tiller while he ushered at Reformation Lutheran Church, where he and his wife were active members. Prior to Tiller's
assassination, the "loving" faithful had put bullets in his arms and bombed his clinic.
Unfortunately, with Tiller's controversial clinic finally out of business, the lesson for the loony may be that lethal force is more effective than lobbying. In the Times article, Mark Geitzen, chairman of the Kansas Coalition for Life, expressed this sentiment when he said during a phone conversation, "God has has
is own way...but you can't say our prayers weren't answered."
Tiller's death vividly illustrates the danger posed by the violent language and imagery used by fanatics, who believe they are personally entrusted to enforce God's will. What concerns me is that the aggressive tactics used against abortion providers are slowly seeping into the anti-gay movement.
As the wider culture becomes more accepting, homophobes are growing increasingly frustrated, which has led to bolder and more confrontational actions. Are anti-gay leaders egging on unstable followers to attack gay people or provoking gays to defend themselves so they can manufacture martyrdom and justify retaliation?
At the
Dore Alley Fair in San Francisco last weekend, a number of muscular Christians wearing Jesus shirts reportedly tried to march through the event thumping Bibles and waving signs.
In Charlotte,
Dr. Michael Brown, (left) the founder of the Coalition of Conscience, organized several hundred followers in red shirts to descend like uninvited locusts on Charlotte Pride last week under the banner, "God Has a Better Way."
Aside from the pompous name of their demonstration, the protesters confronted gay people and browbeat them with cherry picked Bible verses. Brown's ostensible reason for marshaling the troops was to introduce Pride attendees to his angry version of God.
But, of course, the notion that gay people in conservative North Carolina needed Brown to educate them about religious fundamentalism was farcical. Indeed, many of the people at Pride had only found personal acceptance after long journeys to reconcile their spirituality and sexuality.
No, Brown was really there to besiege Charlotte's gay residents with his hostile hordes. His group's in-your-face presence was designed to disrupt peaceful assembly and make Pride attendees feel guilty and uncomfortable so that they might skip future gay events.
Fortunately, the pious proselytizers were on their best behavior after the militant writings and actions of Brown
came under intense scrutiny by local
Q-Notes editor Matt Comer. In his research, Comer found that Brown started his FIRE School of Ministry to "raise up a holy army of uncompromising spirit-filled radicals who will shake an entire generation with the gospel of Jesus by life or death."
In a vacuum, such religious language may be viewed as a relatively benign rhetorical flourish. However, when followers are portrayed as holy warriors in a life and death struggle against a minority group that is falsely accused of working to undermine freedom of religion, the seeds of potential disaster are intentionally being sown.
In advertising his rally, Brown proclaimed that the "hour is urgent" and that Christians must "turn back the tide of homosexual activism." In
a written statement following his intolerance invasion of Pride, Brown wrote, "Enough is enough to the destructive goals of gay activism...we say it stops in Charlotte."
Most alarming are these charlatans' deliberate perpetuation of paranoia by trumpeting alleged religious persecution that exists only in their warped minds. For example, in his statement Brown accused gay people of "trying to put Christians in the closet." And, he capped it off by saying that gay people are "tampering with the foundations of human society."
Brown tries to cover his tracks by sprinkling his apocalyptic rhetoric with calls for non-violence. Good orators, however, understand the principle of "layering" messages. If in one sentence you speak of violence and in the next of non-violence, the listener will almost always embrace the words that support his or her belief system.
Dr. Brown isn't naive and surely understands that the GLBT masses will not retreat into the closet unless events conspire to make coming out a blood sport. Short of extreme bullying and brutality he'll never accomplish his lost cause of "stopping" progress on gay rights in Charlotte.
Brown, of course, doesn't actually have to make an overt pitch for mayhem. Simply by inciting his flock he is setting the stage for future tragedy. It is time for Brown and his comrades to abort their increasingly hostile and combative tactics before it leads to more wanton death in the name of abundant life.
59 Comments:
I'm sure the lgbt people used restraint as we usually do, but I could confidently say if *we* strong-armed our way into one of their "churches" with hate signs and shouting at them, we would be met with instant violence. All glbt people should learn basic self-defense, but of course, never use it until someone puts his hands on you first.
I recently saw a 2 hour program on the History channel about the Crusades. It's sad and frightening that after nearly 1000 years, people like these (blood)red-shirted goons still think that mindless hate and slaughter is somehow the 'will of God'.
They have basically already LOST this 'culture war', and they *know* it!!!
posted by , at
7/28/2009 4:01 PM
Interestingly, in the Tiller case, the fundamentalists infiltrated his church several times and disrupted services. So much for the sanctity of the sanctuary. Where was Brown and Porno Pete Labarbera to rail about invading Tiller's church?
Their silence speaks volumes about who they truly are.
Ultimately, Brown has serious paranoia issues. He somehow has convinced himself that gay people, who want equality, want to keep him from praying. To make his points, he exaggerates and distorts examples.
Quite sad, really, that someone must resort to falsehoods to keep the big lie from collapsing.
posted by Wayne Besen, at
7/28/2009 4:11 PM
This person is pitiful but dangerous as there are numberous fundietards who listen to his crap. I would like to see hate speech laws a la Canada but in this country it will likely never happen. At least if we had them the fundies might have some basis for their constantly crying "persecuted". I am sick to death of hearing their whining about how persecuted they are. GBLT people need to fight this on every level they can and with all legal weapons at their disposal.
Wayne I'm not surprised that fundies infiltrated Dr. Tiller's church in order to dsrupt services. The fundietards think that only THEIR kind of Christianity is real Christianity. I wish that any church that suffers this crap from the fundietards finds legal means of discouraging their intrusive crap.
posted by Merlyn, at
7/28/2009 4:24 PM
This doesn't particularly bother me. In fact, I see it as a good sign. Please allow me to explain: We live in a great country where all people have rights, including the right of assembly and free speech. This group was asserting those rights, and they have every right to do so.
Maybe the reason that I am not threatened by them is because I am supremely confident in the future. It looks bright. Twenty years ago, this evangelist and his group wouldn't dare to come within a mile of a gay pride parade.
Little does he know that his desire to speak peaceably to gays and lesbians is a direct result of the progress that he claims to want to halt. Twenty years ago, he and his flock would be have been terrified of "the homosexuals" and wouldn't even speak the word "gay," never mind show up for a gay pride parade, even as supposed prayer warriors.
The day has arrived when even Christian fundamentalists and gay rights activists occupy the same public space together. Gays are quite familiar with evangelicals; this particular group of Christians is actually making progress for gays and lesbians when they seek to commune with us. Of course, to save face, they must frame their actions as the righteous against the lost, but psychologically, they are seeking to co-exist with us, and that is progress indeed.
posted by Chris L., at
7/28/2009 4:52 PM
Hey Wayne,
Just a quick note from yours truly, Dr. Brown.
Thanks once again for the comic relief and fictional reporting, although it concerns me that some of your readers could actually take this stuff seriously and get fearful. Hopefully, they'll be able to separate truth from fiction easily enough. If you ever desire to get the real facts please let me know, and I'd be happy to share them with you.
I find it curious that you feature someone else's sign in your article -- as if it was ours -- since we carried no signs in our event, but that's just like the rest of your article: False accusations, terrible distorting of words, and an occasional accurate quote thrown in for good measure.
Sooner or later, you'll have to realize that the reason we've never had a confrontation in Charlotte or elsewhere (at this point, in more than 35 years of ministry around the world) is because we are followers of Jesus, and our "weapons" are prayer, love, compassionate service, and teaching the Bible. Quite ho hum after all.
The real laugher, however, is that we were allegedly exposed by Matt's article (a terribly misguided and even dangerous piece of journalism, BTW), causing us to be on our best behavior this year -- which would be similar to saying, "We exposed the vicious tactics of those lambs, showing that they intended to be wolves, and that's why they acted like lambs."
Put another way, it's like the guy standing on the street corner of Manhattan clapping his hands, and when asked why, he says, "I'm keeping the elephants away." When he's told that there are no elephants around for miles, he says, "You see. It's working!"
So, you are having people call out the National Guard because the Salvation Army is coming to town. Somewhat pathetic, really.
It makes me wonder if you're actually trying to foment some kind of confrontation, since in a million years we will never be who you claim we are, making you more desperate to prove a fictional point.
For a reality check for those here who take for granted that Wayne is reporting the truth, check our stated purpose and approach for being at Pride Charlotte as reported in Q-Notes BEFORE Matt allegedly exposed us. It always remained the same: Loving and gentle-spirited outreach to individuals as Pride Charlotte while our main group stood across the street and prayed. My statement to the media -- which you obviously disdain, understandably -- was read to our group at the end of the day.
Do you and I clash ideologically in terms of "gay activism"? Certainly, and that's where our discussion should be, and if you want to call me a bigot for not agreeing with what you consider your fundamental human rights, I can understand that. But the more you harp on this alleged violence stuff, the more you will be seen as an unreliable and even fictional source of information.
And what happens if you win the next battle in the so-called culture wars? I do what I've been doing for almost four decades: Pray, reach out, teach the Scriptures, and vote and act according to my conscience. That's about it!
(I post this here just to archive the other side of the story for the sake of people who make it to this website and read your article in the future. If I print up something on my website, I'll alert you so you can respond if you like.)
posted by Unknown, at
7/28/2009 5:51 PM
Dr Brown:
I noticed you made many accusations with no supporting data.
Matt Comer's piece was quite solid. His work stands on its merit, while your violent words and bullying actions can't be so easily explained away.
Actually, Dr. Borwn. people who were harassed by your goons in prior marches say they were made to feel uncomfortable.
Finally, it is not okay that you oppose our equal rights, and use your flock to do so. You may have the right, but what you describe as conscience is morally unconscionable.
Dr. Brown, what I saw was pathetic. An "army" of so-called "Christians" coming to a park to rain intolerance on the gay parade. Imagine how much good would have been done if you would have marched that pious platoon to a soup kitchen? What if you would have used this group to build a house for a homeless person?
But, you know very well that scaring ignorant people is what sells. So, you market your madness and profit from the pain of other people.
I do want to add that when you came to my speech at Grand Valley State University, you were anything but a lamb.
People in the audience found your rude and obnoxious. The moderator had to shoo you away and people booed you away from the public microphone, which seemed velcroed to your hand.
It is time you take a good look in the mirror Dr. Brown. Your "love the homosexual" shtick is about as contrived as the fake Brownsville Revival in which you launched your career.
http://www.intotruth.org/brn/nov19_01.htm
http://www.intotruth.org/brn/Pensa-News1.html
posted by Wayne Besen, at
7/28/2009 7:09 PM
Wayne, if you ever want to have a serious discussion -- as opposed to repeating drivel and false accusations -- let me know. Your response here to me is about as accurate as me saying you're a neo Nazi, and then, when you call that accusation rubbish, I claim that you bring no proof.
As I've told you several times, you're welcome to be my guest on my radio show anytime you like and you can air any charge you like, and we'll see who is speaking truthfully. Otherwise, if you simply want to spout unfounded rumors and repeat libelous reports from the past be my guest.
As for the GSVU event, how about putting out the unedited video for everyone to see, including where you gave a patently false answer to my closing question? (I went back and checked the quotes from your book, and, in fact, your answer was false.) How about getting the perspective of Prof. Milt Ford who was on the panel that night, and with whom I had a delightful lunch the following day? And how about the moderator of the event apologizing to me afterwards for appearing harsh? And how about another panel member commending me for being patient and gracious?
That being said, you're actually inspiring me to write an article about you that will be just as fictional as yours have been about me -- except even more fun to read.
Stay tuned! And again, thanks for the comic relief. This time you really outdid yourself!
posted by Unknown, at
7/28/2009 7:25 PM
Dr. Brown:
People thought you were a complete jerk in Grand Rapids. This is a fact.
Once again you have made false accusations without supporting data. You called my work libelous. Good - sue me, so I can win in court.
Your entire career - starting with the phony Brownsville revival school that canned you, has been built on misinformation and over-heated rhetoric.
The militant viewpoints you express repeatedly in your work are there for the world to see. They are not my opinion, but stubborn facts.
Sure, you can smile and be nice to people and sometimes use charm to win them over.
But, this is just a distraction from your life's work. The record is available and it is what I and others have quoted.
You seem to have issues with your own words when they are held up to a mirror. If you find people citing your work so distasteful, perhaps you should not have said and written and said such things in the first place.
Your words and actions could very well provoke violence by followers who take them literally. You have a right to say such mean-spirited and outlandish things. But, it is the height of irresponsibility that you use your platform to do so.
Again, march your Red Shirts to a soup kitchen or build a damn house with Jimmy Carter. There is so many useful things you could do with your flock.
What a waste.
posted by Wayne Besen, at
7/28/2009 10:04 PM
Wayne Besen is an excellent activist, and he doesn't keel over when he is faced with opposition, whether it be from fundamentalist Christians or from those in the gay community who are strangely bothered by his unapologetic approach. This is hardball, gentlemen, and Wayne doesn't try to hide that fact like some in the evangelical community do.
As I said in my initial post, Dr. Brown and his followers have a perfect right to occupy any public square. However, Dr. Brown certainly needs to realize that some people, including Wayne, will find his actions offensive and will respond as they deem appropriate, as is also their perfect right.
Fundamentalists must realize that when they engage in actions like the one Dr. Brown and his people recently engaged in, such efforts are tarred by an undeniable, clear message. That message, whether it be disguised in love, Jesus, prayer or any other obfuscation, is this: "Gay people are lost and need Christians like us to show them the way."
Personally, I find that message to be disgusting. It is not only ignorant and spiritually arrogant; it is wrong. It is so fantastically off-base, in a factual sense, that it begs description. The basic premise of such a message, that gays should see the error of their ways and choose another path, is not only illogical but impossible.
In this latest Charlotte outreach, Dr. Brown's message, in his own words, was that "there is a better way." As gays and lesbians, we have been taunted and traumatized by that message. The fact is that we did not choose to be gay. I say this not because there is anything wrong, spiritually or practically, with being a gay person, but because it is the truth. Dr. Brown's assertion that "there is a better way" assumes that we, in some way, had or have control over who we are attracted to, and that is a lie.
It is a lie which has been used since the beginning of the gay rights movement and before it to deny us equality under the law and to berate and denigrate us and the worth of those we love. Even today, in the year 2009, millions of people, many of whom are of Dr. Brown's persuasion, use this lie to assert their own political vision, a vision which would, in the church, in society in general and under the law, regard us as second class citizens.
Amazingly, Dr. Brown and his followers behave as though we have never heard their message before. In fact, the opposite is true. We have been repeatedly beaten over the head by that message all our lives. We are probably more familiar with their message than they are.
When I was a Pentecostal teenager who knew he was gay, I heard a sermon, during a tent revival, in which the preacher urged all sinners to "go to their prayer closet and beg God for salvation." I immediately went home, cleaned out my closet, fell on my knees and begged the Lord to change my attraction for other men. It took me years to overcome such self-loathing. Dr. Brown, with all due respect, we are familiar with your message. We have been hearing it since we were young. If you hear nothing else, sir, hear this: there is absolutely nothing that you or your followers can say that we haven't heard one-thousand times before.
When it is claimed that God Himself supports such bigotry, it is rank blasphemy and is contrary to the message which He gave, which was to "Judge not, lest ye be judged". It is offensive in its assertion and in its assumption that gays and lesbians do not themselves, have a relationship with God, at least those who choose to.
When people who are attempting to relegate us to second class status approach us (during one of our pride celebrations no less) and claim that they "love" us as they assert our inferiority and need for a "better way," it is only proper and right that we are offended and angry. In fact, any gay person with a modicum of healthy self-esteem should feel that way. Wayne is one of those people, and his disgust with people like Dr. Brown and his message is appropriate.
posted by Chris L., at
7/28/2009 10:27 PM
Chris L.,
Terrific statement!
posted by , at
7/28/2009 11:08 PM
Wayne, release the video tapes from GSVU, unedited, along with the fact that the university at a public event disregarded more than 10,000 emails that were sent to them asking for one balancing voice on the panel (namely, me). The tapes (unedited) will speak for themselves.
As for the other baseless accusations that flow from you so freely, if I thought for a split second that you actually wanted to know the truth about any of them, I would gladly supply the details and links, but that would be quite out of place here, where truth and accuracy are as scarce as a gold mine on Mount Everest.
In any case, I'm not upset with you, just disappointed.
posted by Unknown, at
7/28/2009 11:21 PM
Wayne, just curious as to why some other posts critical of you and defending me were removed from your site? Was it an accident?
posted by Unknown, at
7/28/2009 11:23 PM
Dr. Brown, I have a piece of advice for you: leave GLBT people to live their lives and you live yours. We have too much to deal with in every day life to want to have to put up with you and your ilk at Pride Days. Sure, you will get a few self-hating GLBT to embrace the "ex-gay" fraud, but well-adjusted GLBT people will go on with their lives. We do not need your hatred in or near our communities. You may consider it love, but many, indeed, very likely
most, GLBT people would consider it anything but love.
I read the link to your blog or whatever, and you state very clearly that you wish to stop GLBT progress dead in its tracks. Why? Because your benighted view says that GLBT must either become fundamenytalist Christian heterosexuals or else? I want to know why Christians cannot live and let live, but instead have to insert their "good news" everywhere, even when those to whom it is addressed clearly do not wish to be preached at, prayed for, or have your red shirted goons on the periphery
of their events.
I am glad that Wayne is out there fighting for us and if any "respecitble" GLBT people don't like how he is doing the work of activism for the community, go live your lives. If most of you had your way we would all be living quietly in the closet. Has it ever occurred to you that if people like Wayne weren't out there fighting for our rights, you might not even have the courage to say that you are preparing to live your life with the man you love?
Keep going, Wayne and thank your for all your hard work.
posted by Merlyn, at
7/29/2009 12:02 AM
Merlyn,
I would not have posted a word here had Wayne simply taken issue with my stance against gay activism -- which you consider to be an assault on your freedoms and your basic human rights. It his mythical and dangerous talk about potential violence and death that draws me into the discussion here, since some well-meaning people might actually take his unfounded rhetoric seriously.
Yes, you and I have profound differences, and from your perspective, I am your ideological opponent. So let's focus on those differences rather than some imagined, Western shoot-em-up fantasies, and feel free to do your best to influence me to change my views through candid dialog. In the end, at the least, our dialog will produce a greater respect for our shared humanity.
Dr. Brown
posted by Unknown, at
7/29/2009 12:38 AM
You're wrong Jerry. I've been reading this blog for a long time now and Wayne has been *extremely* tolerant of the hateful, ignorant trolls who post here non-stop in the vain hope that some of us will fall for their bullshit and re-closet ourselves into a life of misery and shame. A life, that I fortunately never felt because I always had too much pride and self-respect, plus I wasnt raised in one of those cultic, horrible fundamentalist/pentecostal type families.
And Brown saying he's a "follower of Jesus" is about as laughable as Christmas celebrations in nazi Germany; people who claim to 'follow the Bible' either haven't read all of it or think the rest of us are as foolish as they are. In fact, they only follow the parts that suit them. How many "Chirstians" eat a kosher diet, wear forbidden garments, touch a menstruating woman before she has her mikvah bath, kill your disobedient children, stone adultresses to death (never the men!), make the appropriate sacrifices at the temple/church after the birth of your children ad infinitum. Jesus said, "whatever you do to the least of these, you do to me", so when Brown and his ilk JUDGE us, rant at and harass us and whose rhetoric drives some lgbt youth to substance abuse and suicide, remember, you're doing it to Him! Brownie, you're doing a HELL of a job. In more ways that one!!!!!
posted by , at
7/29/2009 10:41 AM
Gary, just in case you were serious about your comments, your questions are answered here: http://askdrbrown.org/index2.php?option=com_mgmedia2&mode=popup&playerid=4d487d99197f2f1a53077581cca1eb48&no_html=1
Take a few minutes to watch, OK? (If the link doesn't work for you, go to www.askdrbrown.org and click on "The Bible and Homosexual Practice: Separating Fact from Fiction.") You'll also be surprised to hear my actual tone and approach (as the opposed to the myths put forth in Wayne's article).
posted by Unknown, at
7/29/2009 10:48 AM
Don't you have anything better to do than stare at this website? I just posted that less than a minute ago and yes my comments were serious and no I wouldnt waste my time reading anything from you or people like you. I've already read religious books by REAL scholars, not charlatans like you. You needn't reply, I have to get back to work now.
BTW, as we've seen time and time again, any 'straight' man who is as obsessed by homosexuality as you seem to be, usually has a closet or men's bathroom stall lurking somewhere in their life!
posted by , at
7/29/2009 11:03 AM
Well said, Wayne, as always.
Gary....the majority of these so called "christians" ignore the bibilical quotes that none of them live by, its so transparent why they don't. It proves one thing though, they're so desperate because they know they're losing the cultural war, but then, they're losers anyway. This explains why they troll gay blogsites because they have NO audience.
These charlatans who run the ex-gay ministries can't produce one shred of evidence in the form of controlled studies backed up by the APA and others and neither has their work been replicated by the legitimate scientific and medical organizations. They are nothing more than scammers, fleecing vulnerable gay people of their money and consigning them to a life of misery and potential suicide. This con artists should have their businesses shutdown and prosecuted for mental abuse of their victims.
posted by , at
7/29/2009 11:53 AM
Some folks here have said that Wayne is not tolerant of those who disagree with him, and I just have to respond, because that is completely untrue. Just a few weeks ago, when Dr. Tiller of Kansas was murdered, I posted on this blog and said that I didn't think "Tiller the baby killer" should be looked upon as a martyr, and that being an abortionist was hardly something to be proud of.
It was a hard-hitting post, but Wayne was perfectly fine with it, even as he agreed to disagree. There have been many other instances where I've posted on the abortion issue, and I have never hid the fact that I am a gay pro-lifer. Wayne has never removed a single post.
Wayne will have to speak for himself, but I don't see him deleting messages that he disagrees with, because there are many, including in this very thread! Even the posts which accuse him of wrongly deleting posts have themselves remained here without being deleted.
I think Wayne doesn't allow professional "ex-gays" to pretend to be gay while posting; it is not a "content" issue; it is an identification issue. He doesn't want his blog to become a haven for professionals who lie about who they really are. I have disagreed with him many times, and he has never deleted a single message, but again, he will have to speak for himself.
posted by Chris L., at
7/29/2009 1:24 PM
posted by Merlyn, at
7/29/2009 1:57 PM
I am sick to death of hearing what the Christians and other homophobes have to say about LGBT people but since there is the First Amendment to the Constitution. It isn't as if homophobes have been forbidden to spew their homohatred--any person with the ability to read or hear can find right-wing religious speakers making their opinion of GLBT people abundantly clear.
But not content with that, these people feel the need to come to our Pride events and make sure that we know that they are on the periphery and that there is not one thing we can do about it.
I think LGBT people ought to do something similar: wear shirts with LGBT slogans, signs, whatever and hold vigils outside the churches of people like Dr. Brown. To those who feel threatened: we are only here peacefully and are not in abrogation of your rights. Let's see how comfortable the fundies would feel with that. Oh sure, here, they would say they are fine with that, but then if we were to check out their websites and blogs, there would be bleating about how threatened they feel and how they are suffering for Jesus.
There may be LGBT people who think you and your ilk are just great, but I would daresay it is not the largest part of the community. You are not wanted in the LGBT community. If some want what you are selling, fine. Let them go to your church. Most of us do not want what you have on offer and should not have to put up with intrusions into our celebrations.
posted by Merlyn, at
7/29/2009 2:00 PM
Monica said "I think a bunch of us need to "get over ourselves" and quit whinning.".
Right on Monica. Just because gays are murdered and assaulted, fired from their jobs and evicted from their homes for being gay, can't marry their one true love, adopt children, and are demonized as the end of civilization and satanic minions is no reason to whine. LGBTs should just accept their oppression and second class citizenship and be damn glad for it.
posted by Priya Lynn, at
7/29/2009 4:12 PM
Basically, Mr. Brown, I will not allow your shills to flood this site, as they did Charlotte Pride. There are many activists who will put up with your games. I happen not to be one of them.
As far as the video in question, I have not seen it myself, nor do I have it in my possession. So, I find it a little bit odd for you to be asking that I post it.
posted by Wayne Besen, at
7/29/2009 7:34 PM
posted by Unknown, at
7/29/2009 8:37 PM
I just spotted this comment and I haven't the slightest clue what you mean when you speak of "my shills" flooding your site, nor do I have any idea what "games" you're talking about. I haven't sent out anything to anyone about your article (check my e-blasts if you like) and have never asked folks to flood any gay activist's website.
As for the video, I thought it belonged to you, but if not, I'm sure you can get a copy of it from the university, correct? It's not a big deal to me, but since we have each have our version of the story, it might be enlightening for folks to watch.
Before I exit this site for now, let me agree with you emphatically that you and I do have very deep differences, and that I am committed to stand against some causes that are near and dear to your heart. In that sense, we are opponents. But I strongly urge you to drop these bogus and inflammatory charges of alleged provocative and violent language (as if anyone listening to my words or reading my writings in context could possibly misunderstand that the "Jesus revolution" I speak of is a moral and cultural revolution fought with the weapons of love, compassion, prayer, sacrificial service, and truth, and based totally on the non-violent principles of Jesus, principles that Gandhi and Martin Luther King sought to emulate).
Yes, take serious issue with my Statement to the Media; yes, take serious issue with me bringing 500+ people to Pride Charlotte to pray, worship, repent of our own sins, and interact peacefully with attendees; yes, take serious issue with my lecture series on homosexual issues; yes, take serious issue with my telling people that God can help them overcome same-sex attractions; yes, as a Jew, take serious issue with my belief in Jesus as our Messiah. We really do have enough to differ about, yet I do want to get to know you personally and build a relationship with you to the extent that you are willing to. But as long as you are writing pieces about alleged, potential violence from peaceful followers of Jesus, you are not only punching the air, you are scaring people who take you seriously, perhaps even provoking them to do something irrational. Please do think about this.
I had thought of writing a satirical piece about you that would parallel your piece about me here but have decided against that, since my goal is not to try to make you look bad. Instead I am simply asking my friends to pray for you that God's love and goodness would flood your life. I suppose that will seem arrogant to you, and you can tell me in advance "Thank but no thanks," but I will still continue to pray for you and ask others to do the same. I'm quite grateful people did this for me 38 years ago.
posted by Unknown, at
7/29/2009 8:46 PM
Mr. Brown, only someone with no idea of the meaning of love and compassion could talk about fighting with them as weapons. You've bastardized those terms beyond all recognition, no one can take any of your double-talk seriously.
posted by Priya Lynn, at
7/29/2009 9:01 PM
Dr. Brown, I really think that most if not all of us are unlikely to find a common ground in talking with you. You will accept nothing less than our buying into the whole "ex-gay" fraud and we will accept nothing less than full equality with other Americans. Not much to talk about, is there?
Many of us have worked through a lifetime of pain and guilt to come to the point where we accept ourselves for who we are: human beings with a right to life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness. If our interpretation of that phrase is different than yours...well, you'll just have to live with it. Most Fundamentalist Christians I have known have no concept of dialogue. I gather from your posts that you do not have a concept of the word, either. Excuse me, you do, but to me that looks like "monologue".
Fundamentalists, yourself included, have nothing to say to the GLBTQ community that we have not been hearing for centuries. We do not care if you are some guilt-ridden gay man who embraced the "ex-gay" fraud or if you are just some reformed heterosexual who "saw the light"...you and others of your ilk have nothing to say and nothing to teach us. Please understand that we do not care what you are peddling--it has been made clear to you that we are not bying it. Now do us a favour and leave us alone.
posted by Merlyn, at
7/29/2009 9:43 PM
Wayne, what happened to the four posts that I put up this afternoon? And what about the two posts from persons last evening that you removed? It is apparent that when you don't like what is written you simply remove the posts. Such bull shit Wayne. And you will remove this post as soon as you read it. You can't take criticsm about what you write. How sad Wayne.
posted by Monica, at
7/29/2009 10:37 PM
And by the way...homosexuals don't exist. There is no such thing as an ex-gay. That suggests someone is gay in the first place. People are born heterosexual and some choose to act on their same-sex attractions. I am living in a lesbian relationship as a heterosexual. I have same-sex attractions but I don't consider myself a homosexual. Folks who read this website need to get over themselves thinking they were born gay. We are all HETEROSEXUALS
posted by Monica, at
7/29/2009 10:41 PM
Oh Lord, another lune, ("homosexuals don't exist.) Such is the insanity that is commonplace in the "ex-gay" world.
posted by Chris L., at
7/29/2009 10:46 PM
Chris...I am far from being a "lune." My Ph.D. from Yale means I know how to think critically. And where did you get your education?
posted by Monica, at
7/29/2009 10:53 PM
Chris...I am far from being a "lune." My Ph.D. from Yale means I know how to think critically. And where did you get your education?
posted by Monica, at
7/29/2009 10:54 PM
A degree does not necessarily denote intelligence.
posted by Merlyn, at
7/29/2009 11:25 PM
BTW, Monica, would you care to explain to us lesser mortals how you can be living in a lesbian relationship as a heterosexual, feeling same-sex attraction. I'm sure the answer would be most interesting.
posted by Merlyn, at
7/30/2009 12:16 AM
Monica, you're messed up. If you're same sex attracted, you're gay period. People who are same sex attracted are not heterosexual. If you had a PHD from Yale you wouldn't be that stupid so you're a liar as well. Go away, you're not going to fool any of the actually intelligent people here.
posted by Priya Lynn, at
7/30/2009 12:52 AM
1) Chris is correct. I allow people to differ with me. However, I am wise to the fact that Mr. Brown likes to spew intolerance, keep other people from challenging him in Christian settings and then use liberal values to claim supposed intolerance when he is denied a the very same platform he has denied others.
In Grand Rapids he said I could speak at Love Won Out. I looked at the agenda the next day and I was not on it. He lied.
2) Mr. Brown likes to use his brainwashed followers to inundate and flood pro-gay websites. It ain't going to happen here. I will delete any posting I believe comes from a professional ex-gay or a brainwashed shill.
3) Monica - you are insane. How odd that gay magazines, restaurants, bars, relationships and Pride events exist - yet there are no gay people. I am only leaving your posts up to highlight just how kooky our opponents are. I appreciate you allowing yourself to be used for such instructive purposes.
posted by Wayne Besen, at
7/30/2009 11:11 AM
Monica, George W. Bush also went to Yale. However, you are probably correct in calling me on the fact that I called you a "lune" (as in lunatic). I should have stuck to criticizing your point that "homosexuals don't exist" which I think is preposterous.
However, I respect the fact that you think critically; I just disagree with your reducing a gay person's identity to mere behavior. It is not behavior. It might have been "behavior" if gay people like myself were also attracted to the opposite gender and consciously decided to swing towards the same-sex.
However, as a gay man, I do not have any attraction for a woman. I find the idea of having sex with a woman to be quite repulsive, actually, and that is why your premise is wrong, because most gays have no attraction for the opposite sex. It is not mere behavior, it is a constitutional difference.
And finally, I received my education from NYU, although we should both admit that there are a lot of fools walking around today with college degrees, wouldn't you agree?
posted by Chris L., at
7/30/2009 12:20 PM
Priya, you are so right! Anyone who has same-sex attractions and is in a same-sex relationship is NOT heterosexual. Monica has some major issues going on. I suggest that she gets out of denial and gets some help for this.
Wayne, hopefully we have heard the last of these individuals (crosses fingers and toes). Believe me, I would welcome Michael Brown "shaking the dust from his sandals" and going elsewhere to peddle his faux "peaceful Christians" shtick. The sad thing is that his sort of Christian sullies the names of those who are real Christians.
I looked at the pictures again and the absolute arrogance and weirdness of the red shirts (such as the woman with her hands raised) never ceases to amaze. These arrogant individuals ASSume that God is on their side and that is what drives their craziness. Brown can spout his drivel all that he wants, but we have already seen the results of his sort of evangelism. Bottom line, Mikey: nothing happens in a vacuum. Words result often in action, not all of it peaceful or positive. The next time an LGBT person is killed in the name of Jesus, you will have had a hand in it--often, the thought is followed by action.
Gary, I think you have an excellent point about self-defense. At some point, this man's hateful rhetoric may well have disastrous consequences and GLBT people need to be ready to defend themselves. These bullies expect us not to fight back at all...what a surprise it would be for them to find out that "it ain't necessarily so".
Wayne, you are doing the community a great service! Keep up the good work. I would not know of these things but for finding them here and on the TWO website.
posted by Merlyn, at
7/30/2009 12:26 PM
Mr. Brown says: "I had thought of writing a satirical piece about you that would parallel your piece about me here but have decided against that, since my goal is not to try to make you look bad."
Mr. Brown, the only person who can make me look bad is myself. When my work is good, people know it. If I do not meet my standards, people will rightly criticize.
But, you are incapable of making me look bad in this instance, because I have merely quoted or highlighted your own words. You cannot wish away the terrible things you have said and written. You cannot brush aside some of your scary associates.
What you can to, Mr. Brown, is apologize for the violent nature of your work and become born again in non-violence.
Until you do so, you are just a fraud speaking out of both sides of your mouth.
posted by Wayne Besen, at
7/30/2009 4:33 PM
Thanks for all your thoughtful responses. I still believe I am born heterosexual with lesbian feelings. Show me the gay gene and then I will believe I was born this way. Have a nice day.
posted by Monica, at
8/01/2009 9:04 AM
One more thing....I don't think Dr. Brown's work is "violent" as you state Wayne. I think you ought to take him up on his invitation to visit him in Charlotte. There is too little dialogue between both sides of this issue
posted by Monica, at
8/01/2009 9:08 AM
Monica, in the interests of fairness, show me the heterosexual gene.
Also, you are, as pointed out by others, messed up so anything you say about people being supposedly heterosexuals yet having same-sex attraction can be taken with a large grain of salt.
Buh-bye and have a nice day.
posted by Merlyn, at
8/01/2009 11:05 AM
MOnica - for that matter show me the left handed gene. If you can't does that mean all people are born right handed but engage in right handed behavior?
As far as a biological basis for homosexuality - it is a much stronger case than the idea bad parenting or abuse made one gay, which is the nonsense preached by ex-gay groups.
http://www.truthwinsout.org/biological-research/
posted by Wayne Besen, at
8/01/2009 11:37 AM
I meant to say born right handed but engage in left handed behavior.
posted by Wayne Besen, at
8/01/2009 11:38 AM
Wayne, the idiocy of the religious rigt and their hangers-on never ceass to amaze me. They ignore the findings of science unless it correlates with their warped world-view.
If homosexuality, like heterosexuality did not have at least some correlation to genetics, then why does it keep cropping up in families? Why are men with older brothers likely to be gay?
Why do these idiots think reparative" therapies (which don't repair anything except the "therapist's" bank account) work? Show me a straight who has gone gay and we'll talk.
Monica will come up with ANY explanation as long as she can deny being a lesbian, but as in the case of so many "ex-gays" and "heterosexuals" experiencing same-sex attraction, there isn't even plausible deniabiiity to fall back on.
I fail to understand why just admitting what you are, coming out, and getting on with their lives is such a big deal for these individuals.
posted by Merlyn, at
8/01/2009 12:04 PM
Wayne,
I have been committed to non-violence since you were a child (since early 1972; I'm not sure how old you are), and the day you provide a single quote in context where I utter a violent or potentially violent syllable towards the LGBT community (or, to any other human being) is the day I will apologize without hesitation. So, be my guest, do the research, and provide the quote in context, either written or spoken.
Interestingly, when I asked Matt Comer on my radio show if he was committed to stand for his LGBT convictions by life or by death, he said that he was, which I expected him to say. (I applaud his courage but differ with his goals.) So too, I'm ready to stand for my convictions by life or by death -- meaning, even if someone attacked me or wanted to kill me for my beliefs, I would not back down.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you mistake my willingness to live or die by my convictions (which is quite common for religious people -- like Orthodox Jews -- or moral reformers -- like civil rights leaders) as a statement of potential violence by me (rather than against me!). To the contrary, it is the foundational statement of non-violence: Someone can hate me, attack me, or even try to take my life. I will not retaliate in kind, and I will not compromise my convictions.
You might as well call Harvey Milk a violent man, seeing that he spoke of his potential assassination. The logic would be just as twisted.
For the record, I do receive some seriously worded threats from time to time (I imagine that, sadly, you might as well), but by God's grace, those threats do not deter me. Again, I take it for granted that the willingness to stand for one's convictions at any cost is hardly heroic; rather, it is consistent with having deeply-held convictions and, in that sense, quite ordinary.
posted by Unknown, at
8/01/2009 9:54 PM
posted by Chris L., at
8/02/2009 12:49 PM
Dr. Brown, I have no doubt that you'd never pick up a gun or urge your followers to physically assault any gay person, but there is something called "spiritual violence," and sadly, you are plainly guilty of it.
When you stand in judgment of gays and lesbians, and foolishly assert that we have never heard the gospel before (and would no longer be gay if we had learned of this "better way"), you commit spiritual violence against gays and lesbians.
Whether your attempt to paint gays as "less than" (and in need of the presence of your red-shirted followers) results in actual violence or the sad tendency of students to describe things they dislike by using the pejorative "that's so gay," misguided efforts like yours have caused untold pain and suffering for gays and lesbians everywhere. With all due respect, sir, you have no truth in you.
Asserting our moral inferiority because of who we love is spiritual violence. You are profoundly mistaken when it comes to this issue. You are wrong. As Wayne has demonstrated through his life's work, the "ex-gay" phenomenon is nothing more than snake oil. It is nonsense and rank foolishness.
Look elsewhere on this blog...even Alan Chambers, the head of Exodus, admits that the "ex-gay" program doesn't change gay people into heterosexuals. He admits that his attraction is still for other men, and that he simply engages in self-denial (his words) and forces himself to live with a woman. I don't know who I feel more sorry for, Chambers or his wife. Is this the "better way" of which you speak? May God help you for calling ignorance sacred.
All of your errors are based upon the blatant misinterpretation of a book which is predominently one of fairy tales, the bible. It is so far from perfect, but you and others like you constantly use it as an excuse for your actions.
This book, which asserts everything from the idea that slaves should obey their masters to the mistaken notion that the mustard seed is the smallest seed in existence (it isn't) has warped countless minds throughout history. We wouldn't have had a Holocaust if it weren't for this damnable book.
Whether it be slavery, antisemitism, the subjugation of women or the Salem witch trials and now, homophobia, your method of interpreting the bible has created untold suffering and grief throughout history. And yet, you assure us that you have nothing to do with violence. In fact, they are all about psychological and spiritual violence, because pain is the clear result.
When will you understand, sir, that YOU and your followers are the ones in need of a "better way?" It is YOU who needs enlightenment, it is YOU who needs a spiritual adjustment, not gays and lesbians. Since when did believing in God equate with ignorance?
The scripture that you claim to follow says that "you will know them by their fruits." Allow me to ask you, sir, what was the result of of your arrogant display at gay pride in Charlotte? Did hundreds of gays and lesbians come to you for the "help" you claim to want to give us, thanking you for it, or did your efforts fail to produce that fruit? I think we both know the answer, don't we?
posted by Chris L., at
8/02/2009 1:08 PM
Wayne,
I just spotted your post where you allege that: "2) Mr. Brown likes to use his brainwashed followers to inundate and flood pro-gay websites. It ain't going to happen here. I will delete any posting I believe comes from a professional ex-gay or a brainwashed shill."
Once again, this is a figment of your imagination. Of course, if your strategy is to post unsupportable falsehoods with the hope that people who don't know better would actually believe them, I guess there's nothing to stop you from doing so. For the sake of truth, however, how about supplying one stitch of evidence that your charge is true? Alas, there's no evidence for it since it never happened, except in your own mind.
Chris L.,
Just a quick response to your post (although it deserves a lengthier reply). The fruit of our God Has a Better Way event was just as we hoped it would be. We were able to have excellent conversations with many attendees, a door of dialog was opened up with some LGBT leaders, we offered up prayers to God in a corporate manner, focusing first on our sins and shortcomings before praying for the LGBT community, and we were able to get our message out clearly. I'm fully aware that you take our message as a deep personal insult, and we obviously have massively different perspectives on that very important issue. For now, we can only agree to disagree, but hopefully in a civil manner.
posted by Unknown, at
8/03/2009 2:48 PM
>>>I'm fully aware that you take our message as a deep personal insult, and we obviously have massively different perspectives on that very important issue. For now, we can only agree to disagree, but hopefully in a civil manner.<<<
Dr. Brown, I have two points to make on your comment which I've reproduced above. First, imagine a black person or a woman coming to you and telling you that something you did was offensive to them. If you had any manners, you'd say that you were sorry and wouldn't do it again. When it comes to the gay community, however, you choose to second guess us.
Just imagine yourself saying to a black person, "I'm sorry that what I did offended you, but I disagree with you that you should be offended..." It probably wouldn't happen. It is obvious that you view gays as "less than" and not deserving of the same amount of consideration that you would give any other human being. How we feel about your efforts is valid and must not be overlooked.
Secondly, you continually say that you want your interaction with others to be "civil," while continuously ignoring the fact that your desire to "stop the gay agenda dead in its tracks" is deeply offensive and is anything BUT civil. Your desire to be regarded as civil is analogous to a bank robber wanting to be seen as "friendly" because he smiles when holding a revolver to a teller's head.
I read your website...amongst other things, you choose to caricature the gay rights movement by focusing on such things as an apparent effort by some school, somewhere (which I have never even HEARD about) to have students "be lined up by sneaker color rather than gender so they don’t feel “boxed in.”
Such characterizations are inaccurate when they are used to paint the gay rights movement in a defining way. They exist, yes, but they do NOT accurately describe the mainstream gay rights movement which is defined by its most obvious (and mainstream) political goals, which are the Hate Crimes Law, ENDA and the repeal of DADT and DOMA. "Lining up school children according to sneaker color" is to the gay rights movement what Fred Phelps is to Christianity.
They are both fringe elements which cannot be used to describe the movement as a whole. You mention that a book speaks of "Queering Elementary Education." Again, even though I'm a gay man, I haven't even HEARD of such a thing before you brought it up. I know that it exists; that isn't the point. But it would be like me quoting Dominion Theology in order to paint your ministry as fanatical and/or radical. Such a thing would be completely unfair and would be inaccurate.
Years ago, gays were routinely fired from their jobs. They were routinely denied housing and denied rooms at hotels. They were routinely beaten and murdered. A gay public officials would call a female friend to accompany him and his lover to dinner at a restaurant for fear that he would be found out.
Sadly, all of these things still happen today. And yet, the "gay rights movement" which you seek to "stop dead in its tracks" is responsible for changing these things.
If you wish to continue to describe this equality movement based upon the fringe elements which you enumerate on your website, that is your right, but again, it is wholly inaccurate and is dangerously close to bearing false witness against your gay and lesbian neighbors. It is plainly inaccurate.
posted by Chris L., at
8/05/2009 5:24 PM
Glad that ex-gays, Christians, and all those who haven't bought into the "woe is me" attidudes of the "gay community" are standing up for what is right. Do you actually think people are going to sit around a let gay people educate our children about the perversion that you're involved in. I'm a former gay man and I'm SO GLAD that I don't have to keep living that lie. Wow, it's the biggest lie that anyone has told me that I had to be gay becausse of "feelings". Free at last! Free at last. Thank God almighty I'm free at last. And science has never or will never show that there is a "gay gene" because there isn't. Look high and low and
you won't find it. It don't exist!
Is that reality or what. You can look at a black person and they are black, you can look at a china man and see that he's chinese. You can look at a man and see that he's a man! It's elemenatary my dear watson. Unless you just refuse to see it. And THAT's called DENIAL!! And the TRUTH will set you free. Celebrate, celebrate dance to the music! Free at last. Man on the outside, man on the inside. Dont' deny your manhood, embrace it. It's not okay to be stright. It Great to be straight. No more perverted thoughts of you wanted what someone else has got and look in the mirror, you got the same thing. Take those shackles off and run away. That gay community don't have to own your thoughts no more. Can I get a witness. I celebrate my manhood. I'm not a kid still looking for my daddy, my father figure, my role model. I'm past that stage. I'm free at last and don't have to be stunted in my growth as a male! Free at last. Thank God for Frank Worthen the grandfather of ex-gay ministries. Thank God for alan Chambers and Exodus. Free at last. You can stay gay if you won't, but you don't have to because the TRUTH is you were not born that way. Of course there will be those who say poor me it hurt me that I had therapy. Drug addicts and alcholics say the same thing. They commit sucicide also. Let me stop and celebrate!!
posted by DuWayne, at
8/06/2009 1:14 AM
Great job Dr. Brown. I fully support you! Free at last!
posted by DuWayne, at
8/06/2009 1:17 AM
Chris - You've bought into the lie! You have chosen to be gay! It's the biggest lie. I accepted it for many years but now I'm Free at last! Free at last. Thank God almighty I'm free at last!
posted by DuWayne, at
8/06/2009 1:22 AM
Priya Lynn =- No gays just need to get out of the stunted growth phase. Without all the bible verses, it's so elementary. male and female. What's so cool to me about choosing to be straight is my relationships with my guy friends are are neater than when I choose to be gay with guy frines. That's because I'm fullfilling the role and living out what I was designed to be rather than "choosing" something that doesn't work effective. From the body parts to the emotions it don't work when you got 2 men and 2 women trying to pretend to be the sex that they weren't meant to be. Ball of confusion!!! Talk about denying who you are. Look in the mirrow without saying a word, what do you see, what do your eyes tell you who your are. Let me go celebrate me being a man. I didn't for so long and now I'm about to have me a huge Pride parade. Come on Wayne y'all do your little "woe is me" rhetoric! And then try to make some babies. It don't happen cause it wasn't meant to be. Free at last!
posted by DuWayne, at
8/06/2009 1:37 AM
Mr.Brown:
I have let you comment more times than is necessary on my site. Just as in Grand Rapids, it appears that you have boundary issues and believe that your opinion is more important that that of others. You think it is your God-given duty to dominate a discussion or take over a blog.
Wrong.
As I have stated before, you need to work on your issues, have some manners and show respect.
You are done commenting on this post. If you are too inarticulate not to get your points across in several posts, that is not my problem.
Thank you for respecting this blog. And, please stop sending over your ministry minions to do your dirty work. I will delete their comments form here on out.
posted by Wayne Besen, at
8/06/2009 4:33 PM
"DuWayne:" I have not "chosen to be gay." You might want to stop thanking God for your idiocy, because the God you claim to believe in said that you shouldn't "bear false witness" against your neighbor. You don't even know me and yet you pass judgment on my sexual orientation? You apparently know very little about the Christianity you claim to embrace. As for your quoting MLK's "free at last," one of his closest associates was Bayard Rustin, a gay man, so your invoking MLK's legacy is laughable. But please, go ahead, knock yourself out and enjoy your "ex-gay" existence. On another note, I am guessing that you are DL Foster. Am I right?
posted by Chris L., at
8/06/2009 9:29 PM
Wayne,
To repeat: I have sent no one to this site. Please stop posting lies and misinformation. As for GSVU, the tapes speak for themselves, and I hope the public gets to see them -- especially your false answer to me in public at the end of the night. As for being on this site, I'm quite happy to exit and was simply trying to be courteous to respond to people posting directly to me. I'll not return here, as per your request.
posted by Unknown, at
8/07/2009 1:16 AM
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